I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer? • Hacker News Board

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#41

Post by mirkules » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 5:36 AM UTC

mikeleeorg wrote: post #30

mirkules wrote: post #18

I mentioned to someone that in my spare time I made iPhone games. They asked, "as a hobby or you trying to make money?" I replied that sure, I'd like to make a few bucks. He said to me "If you let your hobby become your job, what will you do for a hobby then?" At that point, I realized that making a distinction between a hobby and a career path is a good move, and you have to know what you are pursuing. For example,…

I just tell people I have a great job because I'm basically being paid for doing my hobby (web development). Been doing that for ~15 years now and I've still haven't felt any diminished desire for my "hobby", despite it now being my "job". There are days of frustration, sure - but those pertain more to the business aspects of "monetizing" this hobby (such as dealing with clients when doing contract work), than to the…

"I don't think a hobby necessarily has to be less enjoyable just because you've made it your job."

This may be true in some rare exceptions. However, hobbies have no deadlines, no schedules, no management, no commute (ok, maybe not if your hobby is somewhere else), no feeling of "I have to do this", etc. All these reasons take away from the pleasure of doing your hobby, add to your stress -- which is the whole point of having a hobby in the first place, to take your mind off of stress of daily life.

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#42

Post by Fluxx » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 5:36 AM UTC

Sure there are programmers that don't program in their spare time that are great programmers, but I think the general theme is that doing side projects in your spare time is generally a strong signal you're adventurous, self-reliant, eager to learn, interested in broadening your skills and have a strong desire to get better -- all very important things in anyone hoping to get better at your craft.

When I'm interviewing people, side projects (especially successful ones) are _strong_ signals of a candidates value as a good programmer. This doesn't mean I won't want to hire someone without side projects, but candidates having them 90% of the time are very strong.

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#43

Post by mikeleeorg » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 5:47 AM UTC

mirkules wrote: post #41

mikeleeorg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just tell people I have a great job because I'm basically being paid for doing my hobby (web development). Been doing that for ~15 years now and I've still haven't felt any diminished desire for my "hobby", despite it now being my "job". There are days of frustration, sure - but those pertain more to the business aspects of "monetizing" this hobby (such as dealing with clients when doing contract work), than to the…

"I don't think a hobby necessarily has to be less enjoyable just because you've made it your job." This may be true in some rare exceptions. However, hobbies have no deadlines, no schedules, no management, no commute (ok, maybe not if your hobby is somewhere else), no feeling of "I have to do this", etc. All these reasons take away from the pleasure of doing your hobby, add to your stress -- which is the whole point…

Perhaps my mindset is a rarity; I'll accept that.

I have hobbies outside of my "job" too, and perhaps sadistically, I give myself schedules & deadlines there too. I feel that if I do this, I can keep myself on track and even record my progress to a certain degree. I tend to get great satisfaction in a completed project, hobby or job. And I find the pressure of a deadline gives me this strange "high" - kind of like a runner's high - right before I hit my deadline and/or complete the project.

I totally hear you though. I can certainly understand how such pressure can totally take the joy out of a hobby for most people. And I never try to force anyone on my teams to think or behave this way, unless they naturally do already.

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#44

Post by kenjackson » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 5:48 AM UTC

andywood wrote: post #40

tjmc wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carmack has a side gig running an aerospace company which includes coding all the control systems and telemetry. Some devs are just prolific.

Not to mention things like Orcs & Elves, and Wolf3D for the iPhone. Carmack is a really bad example here!

I'm not sure you can count those as side projects (the games, not the aerospace company, which is a side project -- but it is an actual company!). Those are products shipped by some of the biggest publishers in the world.

That would be like someone at MS saying that their side project was a new feature in Word.

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#45

Post by BasDirks » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 5:52 AM UTC

keeptrying wrote: post #39

I'm sure that 98% of programmers who are of indian origin dont code in their spare time. They do it because its a good living and nothing else. And a lot of them are good at what they do.

You're not sure.

Could you elaborate?

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#46

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 6:07 AM UTC

reedF211 wrote: post #23

A good programmer should wake up at 6 am in the morning get a solid 2.5hrs of coding done by 8:30 am, at 8:30 leave for work, work till 6 (it goes without saying that the lunchbreak must be spent trying to learn the Haskell or if you are feeling lazy answering questions on stackoverflow). Commute from 6 to 6:30 (it's a bonus if you listen to a technical podcast during this time and no stuff like TWIT does not count,…

[deleted]

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#47

Post by mtviewdave » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 6:11 AM UTC

rawsyntax wrote: post #21

unshift wrote: post #5

when i'm working a 9-5 job, the last thing i want to do is go home and program more. i'd rather throw the ball around with the dog or rock out on my guitar. in my experience the people who say "you have to have side projects to be a good developer" are either people who do program in their spare time, or people who want to hire the type of programmers who voluntarily chain themselves to their desk. this is one myth i…

Doctors and lawyers have continuing education requirements that have to be fulfilled to keep their licenses. This is in addition to day job.

In California, physicians are required to put in 50 hours of continuing education every two years (http://www.medbd.ca.gov/licensee/continuing_education_option...). Let's call that 25 hours/year. That's something you can accomplish by going to seminars.

By contrast, a software developer who codes recreationally for 5 hours a week, 50 weeks out of the year, is spending 250 hours per year coding outside of work. That's 10 times as much "continuing education" as the physician. If 10 hours per week, that's 20 times as much as the physician.

Of course, a good doctor probably reads medical journals in addition. But a good developer reads blogs, websites, SO, HN, etc. as well.

So does a software developer really need to spend 10-20x as much time as the physician in continuing education in order to be considered "good"? Why?

To look at this another way, a developer who wants to structure their life to match a good, passionate physician, would probably:

- Work 45-55 hours per week (and be on call for occasional emergencies) - In the evening/weekend, spend some time reading blogs, journals, books on programming languages and software development, etc. - Go to one week-long conference per year (e.g. WWDC)

And that's it. No github account. No contributing to open source.

Yet there are apparently a great many people on HN who would not consider the above developer to be good, who would not hire such a person, and would question their devotion to the profession.

But does a developer really need to spend 10x the time a physician does in continuing education in order to be considered good?

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#48

Post by keeptrying » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 6:14 AM UTC

BasDirks wrote: post #45

keeptrying wrote: post #39

I'm sure that 98% of programmers who are of indian origin dont code in their spare time. They do it because its a good living and nothing else. And a lot of them are good at what they do.

You're not sure. Could you elaborate?

Most of my friends are indians who are programmers - none of them code outside of work. And I mean none. I'm indian - I code outside of work as I'm trying to start a company.

Indians look at programming as a great way to make good money. And a way to move up to management after that. Thats about it.

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#49

Post by spitfire » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 6:15 AM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #16

unshift wrote: post #5

when i'm working a 9-5 job, the last thing i want to do is go home and program more. i'd rather throw the ball around with the dog or rock out on my guitar. in my experience the people who say "you have to have side projects to be a good developer" are either people who do program in their spare time, or people who want to hire the type of programmers who voluntarily chain themselves to their desk. this is one myth i…

> good accountants don't balance checkbooks in their spare > time, do they? How much did balancing checkbooks changed compared to that of 20 years ago? > lawyers don't hold mock trials IANAL, but I assume a big part of lawyers work is that would be considered "side project" in programming, namely going through different cases and looking for stuff that can be useful. > doctors don't do surgery on their friends as sid…

Not to nitpick, but lawyers are a special case. Lawyers don't do side projects because they can bill clients to do that research. Assuming they can find an excuse as to why it's relevant to the client.

Re: I don't program in my spare time. Does that make me a bad developer?

#50

Post by orangecat » Fri, Jun 17, 2011, 6:22 AM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #10

raganwald wrote: post #2

Correlation does not equal causation. Asking whether not programming in your spare time makes you a bad developer is the wrong question. The right question is, What is it about certain/many good developers that leads them to program in their spare time? Pursue that something and you may end up programming in your spare time. Or starting a company such that your side project is your job. Or finding something really ex…

The right question is, What is it about certain/many good developers that leads them to program in their spare time? This is a good question, but it does lead me to a thought... why does it seem like most side projects are done by people for whom the predominance of their work appears to be side projects? Let me explain. Most of the programmers who produce large products, don't do much in the way of side projects. Ca…

It seems like your point is that if you have side projects, your job is probably not hugely fulfilling. I can sort of go along with that, but that's going to be true for the overwhelming majority of jobs. For every Carmack or Linus, there's hundreds of developers doing necessary but unglamorous and non-cutting-edge work like B2B SOAP services or SAP integrations or yet another J2EE storefront. It's not reasonable to expect that most intellectually curious developers will be satisfied with their day jobs.