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Tesla’s CV Approach to Autonomous Driving Built an Unassailable Lead in FSD

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Re: Tesla’s CV Approach to Autonomous Driving Built an Unassailable Lead in FSD

#41
I have spent the last six years working in self-driving and disagree with the article. I am an autonomy engineer at a major self-driving focused company.

First: The choice is between “lidar and cameras” and “cameras alone.” I am not aware of any contenders who have are only using lidar. That means the only downside to using lidar is cost.

Second, the article is incorrect. lidar is extremely reliable for detecting dogs, pedestrians, and anything else you can think of. For lidars with sufficient intensity sensitivity, you can even read the text on signs.

Here’s a list of some tradeoffs for available sensors.

Cost: Sterling Anderson said in a talk at MIT a few years ago “there is no unobtanium in lidar.” Making lidar cheap is a matter of manufacturing scale. Not a matter of new physics. Cameras are still much cheaper and will remain so for some time. This alone might justify choosing cameras for consumer vehicles. The game-changing imaging radars that exist are not cheap.

Long-Tail Events: On a camera-based system without depth sensors, the vehicle must react based on correct identification of obstacles. Consider an image of a pedestrian painted onto the road. A system with depth sensors will not need to stop.

Depth estimation with multiple cameras leaves a lot to be desired. It is bad for untextured objects. Poor illumination conditions will prevent texture from being visible to the cameras. Poor illumination conditions have no effect on lidar/radar.

I would not bet my life on a estimated depth from a monocular camera, no matter how many layers the DNN has.

Weather: Lidar works fine in the rain and snow. Degraded, but fine. Radar works fine in the rain and snow. Cameras can be made to work well, especially if placed in enclosures that self-clean. ATG’s vehicles famously made “whooshing” sounds as their pneumatic lens-cleaners forced water off of their camera lenses.

Time-of-Day: visible light cameras will do poorly. Every system I have seen has degraded camera performance at night. Some systems include an NIR channel to help. You cannot bring enough onboard illumunation to compete with the Sun. Most lidars choose a wavelength that leaves them completely unaffected in day vs night. Ouster has different noise characteristics during the day, but not enough to matter.

Range: At long distances, no commercial sensor can beat the angular resolution of cameras. This is where they shine most. That’s why you see highway-focused systems emphasize cameras so much. Blackmore was a promising path to enabling highway-range lidar capability, but they were bought by Aurora years ago now.

It is possible that cameras are completely sufficient. It is possible that Tesla is even ahead. But this article’s reasons won’t be the causal factor.

The company that builds a functional autonomous car will introduce the largest sea change in transportation since the automobile. The value delivered by each car will be massive. An additional $8,000 for a single lidar is not a dealbreaker. And that’s at today’s costs for a nice Hesai. In 2025 it will be yet smaller. In 2016, the only good lidar on the market was the Velodyne HDL64, which cost $80k. Pucks failed too often.

Re: Tesla’s CV Approach to Autonomous Driving Built an Unassailable Lead in FSD

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially impossible. Just for starters you’d never be able to pass another car in the opposite lane or pass a pedestrian standing near the curb at any reasonable speed. You’re forced to assume the other guy won’t suddenly do something crazy.

I think making inferences about what the rational actors you know of will do is quite a different problem to dealing with situations where there is a limit to what you can see e.g. fog or a corner for that matter.

My point is that in an overwhelming number of situations, it's not sufficient to merely identify the locations and possible trajectories of all of the moving objects. If you assume everyone will act "rationally", you will end up killing someone every few days. If you assume everyone will do the worst possible thing, you'll never get anywhere.

This situation forces you to predict behavior reasonably accurately. There's a big not-so-long tail of people doing stupid things. If you drive in a bar area late at night, you will fairly often encounter drunk people in the street. You may notice some swerving on the road or walking erratically and infer that they might be distracted or drunk or a small child and give them a lot of extra room.

Human drivers typically develop something of a sixth sense observing people on the road and know who it's safe to drive past at high speed and who needs lower speed and more room. If humans didn't have this, the road would be a lot more dangerous.

AVs can compensate for this by having (potentially) faster reaction times, and sensors that can see longer distances. There are a lot of scenarios though where better prediction is more important than either of these. Behavior prediction is a very active area of research in the AV world.

Re: Tesla’s CV Approach to Autonomous Driving Built an Unassailable Lead in FSD

#43
post #6

Given the early stage, I find the idea of anyone having an "unassailable lead" to be laughable. The idea that the one with such a lead is Tesla is even more laughable, and I say that as someone that actually likes some significant elements of Tesla's approach. Although I pretty strongly dislike some aspects too.

This. Ford had an unassailable lead on making cars. Now it’s just one of many. Or Intel until recently.

Re: Tesla’s CV Approach to Autonomous Driving Built an Unassailable Lead in FSD

#44

Tesla fanboys seem to frequently forget the following facts: * People using lidar also use deep learning. * Lidar and HD maps are totally orthogonal concepts with nothing to do with each other. Lidar helps you avoid running into trucks without HD maps. Camera-based methods can use HD maps too. * Lidars are less affected by rain and snow than cameras are (thanks to larger optical aperture, multiple returns, and faster…

FWIW, you can just buy HD Maps: https://www.tomtom.com/products/hd-map/

Re: Tesla’s CV Approach to Autonomous Driving Built an Unassailable Lead in FSD

#45
post #2

hmm, I think the author missed that Waymo drove in snow 3 years ago [0], obviously outside of Pheonix. They also don't seem to understand it's CV + Lidar, not versus... I'd be surprised at a CV only system that can handle snow like seen in the Waymo example. The rest of the article does not hold up once you realize the author is in an either-or mindset and thinks Waymo is not using CV, which they are, and has vertica…

Yeah. The author here is just wrong. Tesla's bet on CV is the biggest thing holding it back and everyone else is using both . Does Tesla have the best and most sophisticated CV tech? Probably. Is that better than having LIDAR and CV? Probably not.

If anything, the reason why Tesla's especially prone to Phantom of the ADAS is its reliance on CV and have no other inputs.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/01/how-a-300-projector-can...

Re: Tesla’s CV Approach to Autonomous Driving Built an Unassailable Lead in FSD

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a fan of both approaches, but Waymo is very heavily reliant on Lidar (and uses CV for augmenting). They have been working on this problem for 12 years now and have just launched in Phoenix, using high definition maps, lidar, and a suite of other sensors. They have Tesla has been working on this problem for somewhere close to half the time and with far fewer resources initially. Tesla has a million cars on the roa…

Waymo is more reliant on lidar necessarily because lidar provides so much more data. You'd expect any algorithm to rely more on better data sources.

This isn't a counterargument, but sometimes more data isn't better data. I think lidar is super impressive in the right conditions, but debris in the air can be considered a bird even if it's a paper bag. If Waymo is having to still use CV to validate that it's a paper bag, then aren't they having to solve both problems? (Not that that is a bad thing, but it is at least two problems. I'm not certain who will achieve a working system, or if any of the players today will at all.)
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