Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up • Hacker News Board

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#41

Post by buzzerbetrayed » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:24 PM UTC

> I don't have a better word readily available than sexism for trying to talk about patterns like this but when I use the word sexism

I appreciate the effort to think of a better word than sexism. My question is, is this even sexism at all? How many men can get publicly denounced as “sexists” and have their life ruined because they didn’t speak carefully enough, before it is simply just “smart” rather than “sexist” to be extra careful with how you speak to women.

To take the example to an extreme just to illustrate the point: If, in a hypothetical world, men served jail time for making eye contact with women, would it be sexist for men to stare at their feet when women are around?

I am 100% convinced that sexism does exist and is not all that uncommon (I’ve seen my wife deal with it a bit in the workplace). I’m just not convinced this is an example of it. Seems more like it’s the “safe” choice for a man in 2021. Both men and women would benefit if we worked to make it not that way.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#42

Post by lupire » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:24 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #13

Der_Einzige wrote: post #9

Reminds me of the phenomenon recorded of men avoiding women after the original #metoo thing. Part of this is that I think that men feel they are walking on egg shells. The kinds of male assertiveness that my wife found attractive when she met me also can leave women who aren't into this assertiveness feeling harassed. I feel that we need to be clear more about what is "desirable" masculinity it "desirable assertivene…

I guess there's going to be a calibration period. The pendulum was stuck, it's started swinging, and the first few swings are completely out of whack. We'll get there, eventually.

There's no reason to assume that. The system could be destabilized because while a pendulum with two sides has a stable a world with many many competing interests and nonlinear feedback systems might not.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#43

Post by kumarm » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:24 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #15

Anecdotal but my office is ultra -woke. There are endless internal emails about whatever-week, or veterans-this, or LBGTQ+-that etc etc. People have been hounded out and either quit or been fired for fairly minor "infractions" of the groupthink (...and also some people have rightly been fired for actual inappropriate behaviour). And guess what all this talk about "toxic masculinity" and generally vilifying all men le…

Now you know how the other side felt all along :).

Seriously, we are now asked to treat everyone with respect and that is a problem?

Edit: No I don't mean eye for eye. I am merely pointing out, this is a male dominant industry where women didn't even have a chance for a long time. The moment we face little uneasiness, we are complaining and throwing temper tantrums.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#44

Post by le-mark » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:25 PM UTC

throwaway_-_-_- wrote: post #18

Creating a throwaway for obvious reasons. I'm not an investor but someone who is in a position to make key decisions about peoples' careers and give advice, and I do have a bit of a trick I use for this. There was one black female mentee who I noticed was timid in taking credit for her work. I had recently attended a diversity panel where someone in a similar role as me said that in a similar situation, and her advic…

It’s remarkable the level you go to to bridge this gap even after being burned, literally no one else would, I wouldn’t. Is it worth my job, career, families future? That’s the calculus and risk imo.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#45

Post by blabitty » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

Der_Einzige wrote: post #9

Reminds me of the phenomenon recorded of men avoiding women after the original #metoo thing. Part of this is that I think that men feel they are walking on egg shells. The kinds of male assertiveness that my wife found attractive when she met me also can leave women who aren't into this assertiveness feeling harassed. I feel that we need to be clear more about what is "desirable" masculinity it "desirable assertivene…

I'll probably get downvoted for this but I think desirable vs toxic masculinity tends to depend on whether the woman in question finds the man in question attractive.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#46

Post by jjj123 » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #14

ipsocannibal wrote: post #2

Seems like online twitter mobs and callouts are actually counterproductive to the "-isms" that employ them. Too bad but expect more of the same as we've basicslly given a global megaphone to any hyper-purist or power-tripper with a social media account. This stops when people have to pay a price for engaging in a cancel action.

They don't care cause they are not the same people. It's like how 100% of women complaining about there not being enough girls in STEM, are themselves women who have chosen a non-STEM career.

What are you talking about? Lots of people in stem complain about women being unrepresented in top tech organizations.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#47

Post by go13 » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #5

I'm really glad to see this here. I don't have a better word readily available than sexism for trying to talk about patterns like this but when I use the word sexism , I think people think I mean "Men are intentionally exclusionary assholes just to be assholes because they simply hate women." and that's never what I'm trying to say. I find my gender is a barrier to getting traction and my experience is that it's due…

As usually, in western gynocentric social order, men are evil and the problem and women are like kids: should have all privileges and carry no responsibility.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#48

Post by sokoloff » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

cbdumas wrote: post #23

I don't think the author needed to bring "false accusation" into the picture here, and in fact it weakens the point. I think male investor saying to a female CEO that her male colleague is better suited to the CEO role would be taken, ipso facto, as sexism. No falsehoods need enter the picture.

If the recommendation was based on data other the genders involved, it’s not sexism, but could be accused as such (falsely).

There are any number of ways person B could be more qualified than person A to be the CEO.

If an investor is going to give good-on-average advice in one case but not the other almost identical situation, the author is right to be concerned.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#49

Post by dijit » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

go13 wrote: post #47

DoreenMichele wrote: post #5

I'm really glad to see this here. I don't have a better word readily available than sexism for trying to talk about patterns like this but when I use the word sexism , I think people think I mean "Men are intentionally exclusionary assholes just to be assholes because they simply hate women." and that's never what I'm trying to say. I find my gender is a barrier to getting traction and my experience is that it's due…

As usually, in western gynocentric social order, men are evil and the problem and women are like kids: should have all privileges and carry no responsibility.

This is not a constructive or helpful comment.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#50

Post by hkt » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

kumarm wrote: post #43

mattlondon wrote: post #15

Anecdotal but my office is ultra -woke. There are endless internal emails about whatever-week, or veterans-this, or LBGTQ+-that etc etc. People have been hounded out and either quit or been fired for fairly minor "infractions" of the groupthink (...and also some people have rightly been fired for actual inappropriate behaviour). And guess what all this talk about "toxic masculinity" and generally vilifying all men le…

Now you know how the other side felt all along :). Seriously, we are now asked to treat everyone with respect and that is a problem? Edit: No I don't mean eye for eye. I am merely pointing out, this is a male dominant industry where women didn't even have a chance for a long time. The moment we face little uneasiness, we are complaining and throwing temper tantrums.

OP is perhaps suggesting that a system where nobody feels like they have a target on their back is possible. Such that we don't (as you appear to tacitly admit we do) simply creature a culture that is still toxic, but for different people.

So, no, it isn't a problem to respect everyone.