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Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

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Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#41

Post by wtetzner »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #25
Iv wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deathbeds are where people have maximum experience and low incentive to lie. Nothing magical. Louis XIV saying "I loved war too much" on his deathbed gives a perspective to his life achievements.

People lie. On their deathbeds with the sense of impending finality they will do their damndest to come up with anything at all to feel better. Lie to God (I'll convert! I'll be a better person!), lie to their spouse (I was always faithful, and always loved you!), lie to themselves (It's not that bad! I'll live.) Pack any situation with emotion and adrenaline, you'll get world-class mental gymnastics. Look at the exc…

I don't think getting someone's perspective when they're actually on their deathbed is particularly interesting.

The point of the deathbed perspective is that imagining you're looking back on your life from your deathbed can help you figure out what you find important now.

It's trying to get a different perspective on your future, looking at it from another angle.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#42

Post by sokoloff »

cutthegrass2 wrote: post #30
optimalsolver wrote: post #5

It shouldn't be overlooked that we tend to romanticize the dying process, probably for our own mental health. Your last words likely won't be wise, witty, or even coherent. A good account from a medical professional on what the end stage of life actually looks like can be found here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay... I was particularly struck by the following comment from one of the read…

We allow termination at the start of a life, so strange that it is not allowed at the end of a life. I agree with the pasted comment, we need to make strides in allowing the right to die.

I think we literally treat our pet dogs with more dignity and compassion than we do our relatives in terms of end-of-life care and decisions.

I watched my grandfather decline over several years before finally dying of Alzheimers/related. His wife had a much longer and mostly happy time in the assisted living facility, followed by a relatively quick period of dying subsequent to a fall and complications from it.

Her experience was 1000x more preferable in my estimation. His experience was agonizing for all involved, perhaps most distressingly for him. I don't know when the right time is to decide "today is the last day" for a family member (or yourself), but I'm quite sure that the answer should not be "at the latest possible date that modern medicine can enable".

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#43

Post by taxicabjesus »

pomian wrote: post #23

The most poignant last words I heard from someone about to die, and did 2 hours later: "I don't want to die." Gives one a lot to think about.

> "I don't want to die." Gives one a lot to think about.

Doesn't seem poignant, I think this is sad. In a previous comment I said, "In America we have an odd relationship with the inevitable. Sometimes people get a terminal diagnosis, and sometimes they fight it. ..." [0]

Fighting the inevitable is not a noble way to go. Sometimes people can forestall their passing for a few weeks, months or years, but the reaper comes for us all. There are a lot of hucksters who steal with the promise of giving us a little more time...

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20224523

Children should be exposed to the wisdom of this quote, maybe from Tecumseh, maybe from some other native American:

"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

"When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision.

"When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.” [1]

Whether or not there's a divide to go over, I think it important to not fight the inevitable. Make the most of the time you have, but don't fear the reaper [2].

[1] https://nativeheritageproject.com/2013/11/17/tecumseh-die-li...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVn6b9QQZeM - "The song, written and sung by lead guitarist Donald "Buck Dharma" Roeser, deals with eternal love and the inevitability of death." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(Don%27t_Fear)_The_Reaper

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#44

Post by giardini »

tartoran wrote: post #35
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People lie. On their deathbeds with the sense of impending finality they will do their damndest to come up with anything at all to feel better. Lie to God (I'll convert! I'll be a better person!), lie to their spouse (I was always faithful, and always loved you!), lie to themselves (It's not that bad! I'll live.) Pack any situation with emotion and adrenaline, you'll get world-class mental gymnastics. Look at the exc…

People lie as in "some people lie". That sounds like a narcissist what you are describing there.

All people lie: deceit is part of being human. Robert L. Trivers has much to say about this. See for example Trivers' book "Deceit and Self-Deception: Fooling Yourself the Better to Fool Others".

https://www.amazon.com/Deceit-Self-Deception-Fooling-Yoursel...

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#45

Post by xivzgrev »

I’m not sure this guy even read the book or blog. The conversations weren’t simply “Bonnie come here...i wish I was more true to myself...”. They told stories of their regrets. As they were preparing to meet their end, I imagine one way to give themselves closure was to get things off their chest, or to help others avoid similar mistakes.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#46

Post by tartoran »

nullserver wrote: post #37
tartoran wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People lie as in "some people lie". That sounds like a narcissist what you are describing there.

Some people lie like they breathe, it’s automatic, and doesn’t have any meaning. It’s not meant to be malicious.

I agree and I do know several people like that. It does have the intent of propping up the reality they live in but it is inconsistent and quite laughable to be honest. I find another type of liars a bit more dangerous, the kind that can put a mask of sincerity and when they can take advantage they do lie horribly. My point was that some people lie, others tell the truth and in the face of death where inexistence is next door, only the narcissists would probably lie to leave a grandiose legacy, the rest, I think they have no incentive to do so.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#47

Post by bluGill »

phkahler wrote: post #13
keiferski wrote: post #6

Eh, as someone with a degree in philosophy, it’s this sort of overanalysis that has led to the field’s sidelining. The so-called folk wisdom stated by the dying might not be logically rigorous, but it’s a perspective that we would do well to remember. Being trite or simple doesn’t make something wrong. My own personal theory is that the deathbed perspective is quite similar to the childhood one: without the constrain…

What about this. Ask a person right now, what would they do if the knew they only had a week to live. Or if they had plenty of money and no obligations. This seems to help getting at parts of life they are neglecting. But not everyone is good at hypotheticals. Maybe that's why we put more weight on the deathbed words - the situation is very real?

If I knew I only had a week to live, then I'll max out my credit cards, liquidate my retirement plans, and have a great vacation. This has nothing to do with my values though. I'd rather spend the week working on my antique collections, but the custom parts I need for the next step won't arrive in less than a week if I ordered them today. Those parts are too expensive to pay cash for without saving up for them, since I believe the long run is more than 10 years I'm better off saving up for those parts instead of taking our a loan.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#48

Post by pwinnski »

keiferski wrote: post #6

Eh, as someone with a degree in philosophy, it’s this sort of overanalysis that has led to the field’s sidelining. The so-called folk wisdom stated by the dying might not be logically rigorous, but it’s a perspective that we would do well to remember. Being trite or simple doesn’t make something wrong. My own personal theory is that the deathbed perspective is quite similar to the childhood one: without the constrain…

That people on their deathbeds do not think of their legacy seems naive. Maybe people realize what's actually important, or maybe people fantasize about impossibilities in an effort to make themselves look good, in contrast to how they lived.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#49

Post by pwinnski »

Iv wrote: post #16
keiferski wrote: post #6

Eh, as someone with a degree in philosophy, it’s this sort of overanalysis that has led to the field’s sidelining. The so-called folk wisdom stated by the dying might not be logically rigorous, but it’s a perspective that we would do well to remember. Being trite or simple doesn’t make something wrong. My own personal theory is that the deathbed perspective is quite similar to the childhood one: without the constrain…

Deathbeds are where people have maximum experience and low incentive to lie. Nothing magical. Louis XIV saying "I loved war too much" on his deathbed gives a perspective to his life achievements.

I'm very curious about your assumption that dying people have low incentive to lie. How do you figure?

It seems as if nearing the moment of death might make people desperate to represent themselves as better people, more noble than their lived experiences might have shown them to be.

I certainly have ideals to which I fail to live up, and while dying I might express those ideal to those around me, since observing my life may not have made those ideals obvious to observers.

Lying might or might not even enter into it, but I also don't see any reason why dying people wouldn't lie just as often as those who don't realize they're dying.

Re: Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?

#50

Post by bluGill »

js8 wrote: post #26

Is it considered valuable? I heard that people on deathbed typically say they should have gone for more friendship and less money/power, but I don't see that many people valuing that perspective. :-)

Who knows. It is always easy to see what you lost, but not easy to see what would have been. Would more friends with no money be worth it?

Would it even be possible, or are most people your friend with money but not without. This should be read in two different ways: the cynical they are your friends for the money; and the more charitable without money you are a freeloader not worthy of being a friend.

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