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Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#41

>“Carl is a difficult person to work with. But I trust in you to accomplish this. You will use your feminine approach and you’ll be fine.” What's wrong with feminine approach? People use this kind of wording especially when it comes to design - e.g room, or outfit, generally those things that are considered as a areas where women are way better, so? >That social networks can involve as much technology as any video ga…

What does “the feminine approach” mean? How is she supposed to employ “it”? What if a manager advised to use “manly ruggedness” to fix an algorithm from O(n^2) to O(n)? It employ “Irish Luck”?

Ok, I get this, thank you.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#42
I read the whole thing and I feel for her, especially around all the gendered language she has had to deal with, but had some thoughts.

I want to make constructive criticisms (which is extremely difficult in the context of someone perceiving harm), but I'd prefer not to get downvoted, so I will try to be as empathetic as possible when stating the following.

> I have a strong opinion about diversity hires: Although I don’t think they are a perfect solution, I consider them an effective measure to break the ceiling glass that excludes minorities from certain roles.

> Was I only selected because I was the only female applicant? Would I have passed the technical assessment? Would I keep moving up the company hierarchy only because I had a minority pass? Did they think that I wouldn’t mind knowing my own recruitment criteria?

These things are exactly why some people are against this way of increasing diversity. Critics of forced diversity hiring see this as a direct and obvious (at least to them) consequence of this practice; her experiencing the result is rather unsurprising (her surprise, however, is). She also does not suggest a better solution, so this just seems like whining (the definition of which is "complaining about a situation without a known solution"). I'd suggest that she probably wasn't informed that she was a diversity hire because intuitively, people know this is a shameful practice without great consequences...

> I have never considered that “having chemistry with the team” could be a reason for being let go. Guess what? After a quick Google search about “cultural fitting in tech,” I discovered that is an argument often used by tech companies to disguise a discriminatory preference.

She links to an example of this, but the example is just another person pulling the racism card when the only example that person gave was not drinking after work with coworkers. You can't expect people to not see you as a diversity hire, but only when it is convenient for you... if you want them to not see you as one when hiring you, but if when letting go of you for some given reason, you want to jump to conclusions based on diversity... you're gonna need much better evidence than that. "Cultural fit" is unfortunately a very valid condition for hire, at least if the goal is productivity and happiness: https://smallbusiness.chron.com/importance-relationships-wor... The fact that "lack of cultural fit" SEEMS TO sometimes fall along diversity lines, is not so much a problem with diversity hiring as it is a problem of people just hanging out too much with other people who seem more like them, something that is (unfortunately) a natural inclination and something that literally every one of us should be consciously fighting. But it's a subpar situation, for sure.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#43

Firing someone for a "lack of chemistry" and refusing to give details is a Grade A dick move.

Assuming that a firing for "lack of chemistry" (which is a very real and valid concern, btw: https://smallbusiness.chron.com/importance-relationships-wor...) is, without evidence, veiled discrimination, is also a Grade A dick move, by being a "default victimization mindset". Anecdotal firings of minority hires are insubstantial proof of discrimination; in fact it may be the opposite, if there's a diversity retention policy (meaning that the problem was significant enough to violate their own policies). This is exactly the kind of conclusion-jumping that rubs people the wrong way and ironically makes it more likely for you to get let go based on "lack of chemistry" (because it's really "we can sense this person is just itching for an opportunity to be a victim and we don't want to be subject to a baseless lawsuit"... but of course, that can't be stated aloud, because http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html)

I'll be honest again: Yes, I'm a white male, but I'm considering hiring people for the first time and this sort of thing TERRIFIES me because I genuinely want to help out whoever I can, and I'm even a natural fan of "underdogs"... What would I do if my nonwhite, nonmale (or both) hire just isn't working out (for valid reasons) but I can't yet afford to fight a discrimination lawsuit? Let's say my imperfect solution to this was simply to just keep hiring other white males for a while. Eventually I realize I NEED more diversity, but now I've created the perfect conditions for discrimination lawsuits by having an all-white, all-male company... Do you see yet what the problem is, here?

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#44

Oh, come on! Dozens of threads and thousands of comments for the weekly Dr. Seuss pearl-clutching. But mentioning that, on occasion, tech orgs are shitty to women is immediately flagged? Whose the snowflake that can’t take any criticism and wants to stop others from seeing it here?

Dr. Seuss threads were also interesting.

But yes, why was this flagged? It is an extremely important topic and this was a an unusual and valuable approach to it.

Pure tech discussions are better on lobste.rs anyway so I recommend those who are allergic to this kind of topics to seek refugee there.

(Or on second thought, maybe not. I don't want deletionist and flag abusers there either.)

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#45

>“Carl is a difficult person to work with. But I trust in you to accomplish this. You will use your feminine approach and you’ll be fine.” What's wrong with feminine approach? People use this kind of wording especially when it comes to design - e.g room, or outfit, generally those things that are considered as a areas where women are way better, so? >That social networks can involve as much technology as any video ga…

What does “the feminine approach” mean? How is she supposed to employ “it”? What if a manager advised to use “manly ruggedness” to fix an algorithm from O(n^2) to O(n)? It employ “Irish Luck”?

Nah I think this is fair game...how much have we been told that Jacinda is better at handling a pandemic because she's a woman?

The default position nowadays is that women/trans people/etc. are exactly the same as men but magically better.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#46

>“Carl is a difficult person to work with. But I trust in you to accomplish this. You will use your feminine approach and you’ll be fine.” What's wrong with feminine approach? People use this kind of wording especially when it comes to design - e.g room, or outfit, generally those things that are considered as a areas where women are way better, so? >That social networks can involve as much technology as any video ga…

what's wrong is that the implied expectation that she would automatically be successful because she is a woman. the boss was probably thinking that she should let her feminine charm work on him or something like that.

"you will use your whatever skill and you will be fine" is quite patronizing.

i would have stated the situation without making assumptions about her ability to do this, especially not any assumptions tied to her gender. i would have explained that she was the only person on the team who doesn't already have a bad relationship with carl. i would have asked her if she wants to do this and give her the option to decline. and maybe even offered a bonus for taking on a difficult task. and at the same time i would have pushed to have carl fired because he clearly isn't getting along with anyone else.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#47

I read the whole thing and I feel for her, especially around all the gendered language she has had to deal with, but had some thoughts. I want to make constructive criticisms (which is extremely difficult in the context of someone perceiving harm), but I'd prefer not to get downvoted, so I will try to be as empathetic as possible when stating the following. > I have a strong opinion about diversity hires: Although I…

i disagree with the validity of cultural fit. if there is a problem with someone fitting into the culture, then it is the culture that needs to change. letting someone go because they don't participate in after-work activities or because they don't drink alcohol is unacceptable. as is letting someone go because of gender differences.

yes, some people have a problem working together. carl in the story is a good example. carl is someone i would let go because he is uncooperative. this again has nothing to do with cultural fit.

and especially if the difference in cultures falls along diversity lines, i would very carefully examine what the actual culture is and make a strong effort to push for a culture change.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#49
post #47

I read the whole thing and I feel for her, especially around all the gendered language she has had to deal with, but had some thoughts. I want to make constructive criticisms (which is extremely difficult in the context of someone perceiving harm), but I'd prefer not to get downvoted, so I will try to be as empathetic as possible when stating the following. > I have a strong opinion about diversity hires: Although I…

i disagree with the validity of cultural fit. if there is a problem with someone fitting into the culture, then it is the culture that needs to change. letting someone go because they don't participate in after-work activities or because they don't drink alcohol is unacceptable. as is letting someone go because of gender differences. yes, some people have a problem working together. carl in the story is a good exampl…

> if there is a problem with someone fitting into the culture, then it is the culture that needs to change.

I don't think this is realistic. Suppose I move to Texas and manage to start working for a company that likes to watch rodeos on weekends and listens to country music all day in the office. Meanwhile, I'm a techno guy who can't stand rodeos nor country music. I start to get irritated with the all-day-country thing, and (as it turns out) work sometimes gets discussed at these rodeos everyone else is going to that I'm missing, so I always end up a little behind where everyone's at regarding work stuff. The rest of the team starts to perceive this as me "not really caring" or whatever, and eventually I get fired due to "lack of fit".

I cannot claim veiled discrimination because I am a white male getting fired by other white males (and perhaps some females, but not 50%).

Do you really expect the entire company to conform to my taste in things? I took race and gender out of the picture here to try to show that this is unrealistic.

> carl is someone i would let go because he is uncooperative.

Honestly it's weird that he was even kept around. Sometimes, people who are willing to butt heads on something are good workers, though.

> if the difference in cultures falls along diversity lines, i would very carefully examine what the actual culture is and make a strong effort to push for a culture change.

I think the best time to do this is at the start, because I also think that after you get above, say, 20 people, the cultural trajectory has already been set and it becomes massively harder to change.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#50
Very much not challenging the experiences in this post but I will say:

“I believe everyone can become a good professional as long as they’re willing to learn.”

was most likely speaking to her youth than her femininity.

Source: Myself as someone who has given advice to a lot of different interns/new grads along the same exact lines.

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