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SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

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Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#41

Post by asdff »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #11
ericmay wrote: post #7

Quick question - since it's South Texas and I can see the Gulf of Mexico in the screenshot... isn't that a little close to the water? Not just maybe global warming + sea level rises but storm surge from hurricanes. Or is that not a concern? Anyone with more knowledge on the topic could share?

Closeness to the water is a requirement so that if a rocket fails it doesn't land on people. And you don't want to launch to the West so that you can take advantage of the Earth's rotation rather than fighting it. (Launch sites on the West coast are for polar orbits which launch either North or South). Given those requirements, there's no location that isn't vulnerable to hurricanes. Boca Chica actually doesn't get m…

Can you launch over the great lakes? Or a desert? Also, what about the east coast? Sure, there was Sandy, but it was nothing compared to what happens in the gulf with regularity. Part of my hunch is that the regulatory environment is favorable in nowhere, TX to bring in potentially polluting industry. No chance Elon could have had a launch site built on the tip of Montauk, for example, although he probably would have loved the press of him self driving from the city to there.

Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#42

Post by bdamm »

grouseway wrote: post #32
ARandomerDude wrote: post #27

They'll have to pay their engineers pretty well to live down there. Nearby South Padre Island is a decent vacation spot, but not many people want to live on the land that close to the border with Mexico. I know a lot of folks who haven't been to Brownsville will reflexively think that's a racist comment or something, but it isn't. The area is extremely poor with police/border checkpoints everywhere, the land is ugly,…

I know this is a digression, but can you expand on the checkpoints a bit? Are there actually random roadblocks within 100 miles of the border where you get stopped and need to provide proof of residency or citizenship? Just curious as a Canadian.

As a Canadian that is also a US permanent resident, yes, ICE and CBP have broad authority to set up checkpoints pretty much wherever they please. "100 miles" includes the coastline. They also can do warrant-free detention, and there have been cases of US citizens detained, sometimes for over a week IIRC, over nothing more than suspicion on the part of the ICE officer than the person in question wasn't actually a citizen.

Where it gets dicey is that they can stop you, but constitutionally they can't force you to produce documentation or detain you. But not many people actually know that, or can stomach saying no to federal officers, and so in practice they can.

It is a part of US law that has a great deal of grey area. The policy was retained under Obama and Trump expanded it although not really by very much. In general the abuses seem to be limited but that's not a great deal of consolation.

Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#43

Post by the-dude »

asdff wrote: post #37

I wonder if Elon settled on Texas due to the local regulatory environment not really caring about the local ecology. The current site is built on a sensitive wetland literally in a state park. No clue how Elon managed that one, but it probably wouldn't have been kosher in a blue state. Local TX officials probably saw how the political capital of bringing 'space jobs' to the middle of nowhere outweighed local flora an…

Like Washington, Oregon, Michigan or NY?

Isn't the latitude the most important characteristic?

Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#44

Post by ncallaway »

ceejayoz wrote: post #33
ncallaway wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, "Elon time" for the first orbital Starship launch was 2020. Shotwell was saying that she would bet yes on an orbital Starship in 2021. I think "Shotwell" time is generally much closer to 1:1 time than Elon time. But I agree, Starship has a fairly plausible path to being orbital by the end of the year.

I'm generally inclined to give people a break on missing 2020 deadlines.

Sure, but Starship wasn't going to be orbital in 2020 even without the pandemic.

It was a wildly unrealistic estimate to begin with that characterizes "Elon time" as a concept. Starship development has been blindly fast, and even still is a maybe on getting to orbit this year.

I just don't think the pandemic pushed their timeline back significantly. I could be wrong, but that's my take from the outside looking in

Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#45

Post by ceejayoz »

asdff wrote: post #41
bryanlarsen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Closeness to the water is a requirement so that if a rocket fails it doesn't land on people. And you don't want to launch to the West so that you can take advantage of the Earth's rotation rather than fighting it. (Launch sites on the West coast are for polar orbits which launch either North or South). Given those requirements, there's no location that isn't vulnerable to hurricanes. Boca Chica actually doesn't get m…

Can you launch over the great lakes? Or a desert? Also, what about the east coast? Sure, there was Sandy, but it was nothing compared to what happens in the gulf with regularity. Part of my hunch is that the regulatory environment is favorable in nowhere, TX to bring in potentially polluting industry. No chance Elon could have had a launch site built on the tip of Montauk, for example, although he probably would have…

Launching closer to the equator is easier.

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/36283/negative-imp...

Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#46

Post by bpodgursky »

asdff wrote: post #37

I wonder if Elon settled on Texas due to the local regulatory environment not really caring about the local ecology. The current site is built on a sensitive wetland literally in a state park. No clue how Elon managed that one, but it probably wouldn't have been kosher in a blue state. Local TX officials probably saw how the political capital of bringing 'space jobs' to the middle of nowhere outweighed local flora an…

I'm sure it's a factor, but they are also situated at the lowest possible latitude in the lower 48 states (it's right on the Mexican border), which is important for orbital launch efficiency.

Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#47

Post by ARandomerDude »

monocasa wrote: post #39
grouseway wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is a digression, but can you expand on the checkpoints a bit? Are there actually random roadblocks within 100 miles of the border where you get stopped and need to provide proof of residency or citizenship? Just curious as a Canadian.

Yeah, it's a thing. They're primarily in the 100 miles of the southern border, and generally you only get stopped if you have brown skin if you're worried about being a Canadian in the US. Check out the term "constitution free zone" if you want to learn more.

> you only get stopped if you have brown skin

Maybe, though I think it's fair to point out a large number of CPB agents on the border also have brown skin, if for no other reason than they need a huge percentage of native Spanish speakers.

Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#48

Post by bpodgursky »

ncallaway wrote: post #44
ceejayoz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm generally inclined to give people a break on missing 2020 deadlines.

Sure, but Starship wasn't going to be orbital in 2020 even without the pandemic. It was a wildly unrealistic estimate to begin with that characterizes "Elon time" as a concept. Starship development has been blindly fast, and even still is a maybe on getting to orbit this year. I just don't think the pandemic pushed their timeline back significantly. I could be wrong, but that's my take from the outside looking in

To be pedantic, it actually seems pretty likely the first stage could have reached LEO. There were no issues at all on ascent, and it has the fuel capacity. At one point Elon was talking about possibly testing this.

But they decided not to do this, because their first priority was to get it to land, and they don't envision LEO launches using only the first stage. That will be in conjunction with the much larger second stage.

Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#49

Post by marktangotango »

asdff wrote: post #37

I wonder if Elon settled on Texas due to the local regulatory environment not really caring about the local ecology. The current site is built on a sensitive wetland literally in a state park. No clue how Elon managed that one, but it probably wouldn't have been kosher in a blue state. Local TX officials probably saw how the political capital of bringing 'space jobs' to the middle of nowhere outweighed local flora an…

> political capital of bringing 'space jobs' to the middle of nowhere

Middle of nowhere is a non charitable as well as non accurate characterization of the area. South Texas and Brownsville are huge in the oil and gas industry. The number and quality of industrial, large structure welders available made the area very intriguing from that perspective alone I wager.

In fact the facility as it exists today is actually quite benign; you should visit if you haven't. It's literally right off the road down there. You can almost touch Starhopper through the fence.

Re: SpaceX reveals the grand extent of its starport plans in South Texas

#50

Post by Tuna-Fish »

the-dude wrote: post #43
asdff wrote: post #37

I wonder if Elon settled on Texas due to the local regulatory environment not really caring about the local ecology. The current site is built on a sensitive wetland literally in a state park. No clue how Elon managed that one, but it probably wouldn't have been kosher in a blue state. Local TX officials probably saw how the political capital of bringing 'space jobs' to the middle of nowhere outweighed local flora an…

Like Washington, Oregon, Michigan or NY? Isn't the latitude the most important characteristic?

Latitude, and having open ocean to the east. If you want to stay in the lower 48, there really aren't any options other than Florida and Texas, there are no good places left in Florida with sufficient safety areas without having to uproot tens of thousands of people.
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