“User engagement” is code for “addiction” • Hacker News Board

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#41

Post by legerdemain » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:40 PM UTC

AdmiralGinge wrote: post #34

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

>We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions, and that they can take steps to reduce their social media usage to healthy levels. I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. I coul…

I agree! The economic effects of Brexit are difficult or impossible to measure, so they're not worth worrying about. On the whole, Brexit was good for British people because it gave them a feeling of action and momentum, like they had a real "hand in history." Britain has never been as energized and optimistic as it has been post-Brexit.

In the same way, I bristle at the suggestion that I'm not rational enough to resist the "addiction" of push messaging. We all know what the word "addiction" actually means. This is not addiction, this is just hokey phooey using fake-medical language to push a liberal agenda of extra regulation.

Every time I get a notification from Twitter or Facebook, my day gets a little brighter. When LinkedIn tells me that someone is looking at my profile, that means someone cares, and that's a wonderful thing to know.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#42

Post by mywittyname » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see.

I see it more akin to the opioid crisis. Just like drug manufactures shouldn't be pushing opioids as a way to deal with minor pain and depression because they know it hooks users. Maybe social media companies shouldn't be pushing hateful and outrageous content to hook their users.

You can sing about personal responsibility all you want. But these companies pay scientists millions of dollars a year to come up with ways to keep you hooked. The only way to win is not to play the game. Normal people are seriously outgunned here.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#43

Post by devmunchies » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:44 PM UTC

CivBase wrote: post #10

If a service is monetized with ads, then the user is the product. We say that a lot but I think a lot of people still don't understand it, especially outside the tech sphere. "Engagement" isn't about building a better service; it's about serving more ads. "Driving user engagement" should be seen as synonymous with "psychologically manipulating users to use the service so they see ads".

> If a service is monetized with ads, then the user is the product

false. The derived data and access to eyeballs is the product. The user is a resource for creating the product.

Some analogies:

  - Cows are not the product, milk is the product. Cows are a resource/asset.  

  - Prostitutes are not the product, sex is the product. The women are resources.

I feel this more accurately dehumanizing than simply stating users are the product.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#44

Post by UShouldBWorking » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:46 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

Wait till you see what they are doing to women.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#45

Post by santoshalper » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:55 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

It's shockingly easy to delete Facebook. I haven't used it in years, and it almost never comes up. They have done a masterful job of making you feel like you cannot live without them through the careful application of dark patterns, but I assure you that not only do you not need it, but once gone, you also will not miss it.

Seriously, give it a try. Shockingly easy.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#46

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

bosswipe wrote: post #32

HNfriend234 wrote: post #26

Social media is a perfect example of where this is used. I know countless people that are literally addicted to it. They want to see every new update continuously and the social media apps are designed to do this through notifications. I saw this clear as day when I was at jury duty. We were waiting for the court to get back into session. There was a girl sitting next to me on the bench and I noticed about every 5 mi…

> Then look at all the mental health problems young people are having these days Is there any evidence that mental health is worse than for previous generations?

[deleted]

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#47

Post by andrewla » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

This kind of semantic game has to stop.

If you water down the meaning of "addiction" enough then you can say that anything is "addictive" and with that, you can carry over all the connotations of the word.

Then people start saying "I'm addicted to coffee" and "I'm addicted to bread" and before you know it people saying "I'm addicted to heroin" are met with "well, why don't you just stop, like I did with coffee for a week that time".

Since the dawn of time people have tried to make things that people want to use. Making "addiction" a synonym for "success" is just stupid.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#48

Post by 8note » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

devmunchies wrote: post #43

CivBase wrote: post #10

If a service is monetized with ads, then the user is the product. We say that a lot but I think a lot of people still don't understand it, especially outside the tech sphere. "Engagement" isn't about building a better service; it's about serving more ads. "Driving user engagement" should be seen as synonymous with "psychologically manipulating users to use the service so they see ads".

> If a service is monetized with ads, then the user is the product false. The derived data and access to eyeballs is the product. The user is a resource for creating the product. Some analogies: - Cows are not the product, milk is the product. Cows are a resource/asset. - Prostitutes are not the product, sex is the product. The women are resources. I feel this more accurately dehumanizing than simply stating users ar…

I don't think the eyeballs are the product.

Eyeballs don't need to be advertised to because they don't spend money

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#49

Post by jointPrb » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

The other side of this is how these companies build engaging products that thousands struggle with. May be a solo developer could learn some lessons. Can anyone shed light on how to build engaging products and make users come back? What methods are these companies using that small dev can utilize and learn?

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#50

Post by tppiotrowski » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #42

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. I see it more akin to the opioid crisis. Just like drug manufactures shouldn't be pushing opioids as a way to deal with minor pain and depression because they know it…

Can you provide some reading material about the scientists that get paid millions of dollars to keep you hooked? This is the first time I’ve heard of scientists involved.