On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't • Hacker News Board

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#41

Post by sql_monkey » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:07 AM UTC

mudita wrote: post #29

I was poor for some time after deciding to quit my computer science phd for a career in art. I guess I still am compared to others, but it does not feel that way any more. When I was really poor, worrying about money and how to pay the next rent was a regular source of stress for me, which took quite a lot of emotional energy. Now I still have much lower income than people, who have regular well-paying jobs, but I do…

Thank you for sharing. Your comment highlights something important I believe when talking about poverty. One common argument against any type of government help is that poor people should just work harder and pull themselves by the bootstrap.

However the situation you describe above shows the many side-effects of being poor which impede life in general: lack of proper sleep (because you live in a noisy area with no other choice), constant stress (paying rent, maybe dangerous neighborhood, etc.), probably not affording good quality food, etc. etc.

Add these side-effects up and one quickly understand that getting out of poverty is an herculean task and I personally couldn't blame someone for not making it.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#42

Post by globular-toast » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:09 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #2

A while ago I read about a study that surveyed people with inherited wealth. IIRC they ranged from having inherited tens to hundreds of millions. No matter how much they had inherited, when asked how much they would need to have inherited to feel financially secure and not have to worry about money, they said they would need something like half again to double. I may be misremembering the details, but that was the gi…

The thing is, humans can't sense a constant velocity, we can only sense change. People always want more. Some people get addicted to the feeling of more and then a constant velocity actually feels like they are losing something. It's even possible to get addicted to the second derivative, ie. your upgrades getting bigger and more frequent. It's impossible to talk to people objectively about how good their life is because you just don't know what they are used to.

In all cases people struggle because they've absorbed things into their life that they now consider essential. The things you own end up owning you.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#43

Post by carmen_sandiego » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:16 AM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #21

carmen_sandiego wrote: post #5

As another ex-poor person: some of this is OK and some of it doesn't really ring true. E.g. > That’s the drop-off you experience at the lower price levels - there’s nothing between “This is a tiny but acceptable apartment” and “Slum apartments in stab-ville”. I don't think this is true, and why would it be? Unless you're in an area where the housing market is cliffed for some legislative or regulatory reason. But mos…

I don't think this is true, and why would it be? Unless you're in an area where the housing market is cliffed for some legislative or regulatory reason. I have a friend who works in real estate and he tells me people in difficult circumstances pay a premium because of the risk of default and damage. The landlord needs more margin to cover those extra risks. He also told me you could never make money at the bottom end…

Right, but there are presumably people at all levels of risk, not just risky people who pay a premium vs non-risky people who don't. Reduced variance is good for landlords too, so there's definitely an incentive to accurately predict and make granular the risk profile/credit check/etc.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#44

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:22 AM UTC

leoedin wrote: post #22

carmen_sandiego wrote: post #5

As another ex-poor person: some of this is OK and some of it doesn't really ring true. E.g. > That’s the drop-off you experience at the lower price levels - there’s nothing between “This is a tiny but acceptable apartment” and “Slum apartments in stab-ville”. I don't think this is true, and why would it be? Unless you're in an area where the housing market is cliffed for some legislative or regulatory reason. But mos…

I've seen this effect a few times with housing. When viewing either apartments or shared rooms, not being discerning enough at the advert stage has resulted in viewing some absolutely terrible places - damp, poorly heated, unmaintained, and the sense from interacting with the landlord that their MO is firmly "slumlord". The really surprising thing is that the rent demanded for these places is often not much less than…

Rental housing is a very sketchy business full of very sketchy people. The fewer scruples a landlord has, the easier the money.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#45

Post by carmen_sandiego » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:23 AM UTC

notauser wrote: post #36

carmen_sandiego wrote: post #5

As another ex-poor person: some of this is OK and some of it doesn't really ring true. E.g. > That’s the drop-off you experience at the lower price levels - there’s nothing between “This is a tiny but acceptable apartment” and “Slum apartments in stab-ville”. I don't think this is true, and why would it be? Unless you're in an area where the housing market is cliffed for some legislative or regulatory reason. But mos…

There is definitely non-linear pricing in the London housing market as one example. When I was last looking - Studio apartments and one bed room apartments rented for similar amounts, and so did two beds and three beds. But the price jump from one bed to two bed was much larger than any of the other jumps. You can speculate on many reasons why this might be the case (smallest size apartment for a family in the city,…

I mean, we can talk about price jumps between bedroom counts if you want but I'm not sure it's very relevant to the article, which is saying there's only "stabbyville" and "safe" places given other fixed requirements. If you need a studio in London, they exist all through the price spectrum, area spectrum, and other dimensions. I suspect the 'jump' you see from one bed to two is that, on average, two beds are in nicer areas, or they are houses rather than flats, freehold rather than lease, etc. Bedroom count is correlated with other features that also increase the average price. But that doesn't mean there aren't two beds in cheaper areas too.

The typical tradeoff in London is price vs proximity to work/transport. For most people. Safety comes in at the very bottom end, but still you can live far out and commute. I'm not saying that's a pleasant experience, or that being poor is a pleasant experience in general, but the tradeoff and choice exists. If you have a job in central London that you'd commute to though, fact is you are already probably well off compared to most of the country. It's a bit like how student debt mostly affects the middle class. Same with expensive season tickets for the train.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#46

Post by tester34 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:28 AM UTC

Poority adds a lot of "over_head"

The more over_head you have, then it's harder to get out of it.

You're unlikely to put your free time into math / computer science when you're after exhausting 8 / 12h shift in warehouse

Also your "environment" may not help you too.

Before I worked at gov't-ish job and my parents tried hard to convince me that "this is the greatest thing because gov't jobs offer ""safety"" and "decent salary"". Thanks god that I had access to the internet and knew the reality.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#47

Post by wizzwizz4 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:31 AM UTC

carmen_sandiego wrote: post #39

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but now consider other monopsonies. There are plenty. What most people get paid is almost entirely decoupled from the net value they create, and oftentimes it's only tangentially related to the value they give to their employer.

The labor market isn't fully efficient but I don't believe it's "almost entirely decoupled" from the value employees provide. If you provide with certainty $100k/y of value and your employer pays you $30k/y, there'd be no shortage of entities willing to bid up that price. Who wouldn't take profit within their risk tolerance? What mechanism do you think would prevent this from happening?

• Barriers-to-entry – e.g., skills, ethical injunctions, psychological torment, qualifications…

• Job security – some people are just too poor to go on the job market for a few weeks or months, meaning they don't have much leverage to get their employer to increase their pay…

• Perverse incentives – some jobs are all about destroying value, e.g. loan sharks, most of the advertising industry… http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8410489.stm (2009) has a short list.

• Monopsony – what if your employer is the only one currently in a position to make that much from you (or all the competitors have already filled their positions)?

I could go on, but I'm only scratching the surface of my surface-level knowledge.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#48

Post by simonh » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:33 AM UTC

brianmcc wrote: post #13

simonh wrote: post #2

A while ago I read about a study that surveyed people with inherited wealth. IIRC they ranged from having inherited tens to hundreds of millions. No matter how much they had inherited, when asked how much they would need to have inherited to feel financially secure and not have to worry about money, they said they would need something like half again to double. I may be misremembering the details, but that was the gi…

There's this in The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/12/rich-peop... “All the way up the income-wealth spectrum,” Norton told me, “basically everyone says [they’d need] two or three times as much” to be perfectly happy. It references this study: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=53540

Thanks, that's the one. I suspected I was under-shooting the multiple.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#49

Post by Aunche » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:34 AM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #17

carmen_sandiego wrote: post #5

As another ex-poor person: some of this is OK and some of it doesn't really ring true. E.g. > That’s the drop-off you experience at the lower price levels - there’s nothing between “This is a tiny but acceptable apartment” and “Slum apartments in stab-ville”. I don't think this is true, and why would it be? Unless you're in an area where the housing market is cliffed for some legislative or regulatory reason. But mos…

Value, not demand. A nurse who helps stop 50 people from dying each week is doing very valuable work, but a talented lawyer helping to defeat valid class-action lawsuits (negative value work) is probably paid more.

Value is relative to the labor pool. If you hired me to inject vaccines instead of a nurse, after some light training I might be able to stop 40 people from dying every week rather than 50. That doesn't mean I would be 80% valuable as a nurse. I'd be providing negative value because there are plenty of nurses who are also willing to do the same job.

Also, if you consider class action lawsuits as overall positive value, then necessarily both sides of the lawsuit are producing positive value.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#50

Post by golergka » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:37 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #2

A while ago I read about a study that surveyed people with inherited wealth. IIRC they ranged from having inherited tens to hundreds of millions. No matter how much they had inherited, when asked how much they would need to have inherited to feel financially secure and not have to worry about money, they said they would need something like half again to double. I may be misremembering the details, but that was the gi…

> I suppose expectations scale up with means.

Isn't that social pressure? No matter how much you start with, if you end up with less than that, people see you as a failure. A person who inherits 10 million dollars and is afraid of going down to 1 million isn't as much afraid of selling his yacht as he's afraid of what his peers would think of him.