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On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

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Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#41
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding a 100+ amp contactor and two way communication to every existing meter will add a lot to the cost of the equipment required at a user site.

Why do you have to do this on the meter side? Cant your power company shut off your power from their end?

The same equipment would be required regardless of what end it's on. The pole transformer feeding your house and your neighbor's house is basically passive AFAIK; it's not remotely controllable.

Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#42
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding a 100+ amp contactor and two way communication to every existing meter will add a lot to the cost of the equipment required at a user site.

Why do you have to do this on the meter side? Cant your power company shut off your power from their end?

No, I suspect power companies cannot generally shut off your power from their end. There's not a separate cable from the power plant to each individual home. There are really big cables that go most of the way from the power plant, then at each neighbhorhood or block they split off into smaller cables for individual homes. That's where the meter for each home is installed, and that's where the power company can turn off your electricity.

Traditionally they sent a technician out to read each meter and turn off the electricity if necessary, but there are newer "smart meters" that communicate your usage to the power company (although I'm not sure if those can also be remotely triggered to turn off your power, I would suspect not).

Where I grew up in a small town in the Midwestern US in the 1990s, the meters were usually installed on an external wall at the back of the house. My part of town had underground power lines (good during thunderstorms, bad during road/building construction) and I suspect the meter was right where the buried cable came into the house. Every month a uniformed person from the power company would walk through everyone's backyards taking the reading from each meter.

Fun fact: most utilities and similar services have historically worked this way. I think the cable television company would just send someone to the cable box on the back of your house and flip switches to enable the channels you were paying for. There was always some kid who claimed to get HBO for free because his older cousin worked for the cable company.

Now that I think about it, I recently got a car that's new enough to have Sirius XM satellite radio built in, and I've been wondering how their access control works. Surely the satellite doesn't beam down everyone's subscription status and make their receiver hardware respect that, right? Is my car using the built-in cell phone to check whether I'm subscribed to the satellite radio? Either way, where are the bootlegged satellite radio receivers?

Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#43
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding a 100+ amp contactor and two way communication to every existing meter will add a lot to the cost of the equipment required at a user site.

Why do you have to do this on the meter side? Cant your power company shut off your power from their end?

If they could do that, they could also install the meter on their end.

Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#44
post #25

Is there a reason why time-of-use systems can’t have a customer-defined price limit, beyond which they opt into a blackout? The sense I got from the stories of people suddenly facing five-figure power bills is that most would have gladly spent a night or two with propane and candles rather than cleaning out their savings.

On the other hand, a lot of people would have been happy to have a 5 figure electric bill instead of having their pipes freeze from an involuntary blackout.

...except the latter will (likely) be covered by insurance, whereas you are on your own for the former.

Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#45
1. The statement "it’s clear that those high prices weren’t doing their job" and subsequent disagreement with raising the price cap does not make sense to me. Any artificial price cap seems to limit the effectiveness of a market. From the producer's side, it limits the incentive to model and capture these tail events (e.g. winterize). From the consumer's side, it limits the incentive to reduce consumption. Is my perspective off here?

2. Is it possible to subscribe to two (or n) energy plans? Imagine subscribing to a wholesale plan (e.g. Griddy) and a fixed-rate plan and switching between them whenever wholesale prices rise above the fixed rate. Are there legal or practical reasons this can't happen?

Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#46

There are some interesting details here but let's be suuuper clear, nobody in the residential sector consented to a 12,000% increase in power costs or a $5,000 - $16,000 power bill this month. I think the article tries extremely hard to forgive everyone involved aside from the residents who have now been completely devastated by this. The only real acknowledgement that residents have truly suffered something they did…

Exactly.

In my experience, there are exactly two types of customers on the kinds of plans like Griddy offers: a) people who are heavily into cost-optimization and have spent the cash to automate their living quarters to take advantage of wholesale price swings; and b) people who are trying to stretch a dollar because a single dollar is all they have left.

For people in that second category, the dollar broke and smacked them in the face.

I am by no means calling people stupid for doing this; they believed the sales pitch and either did not understand (because the wholesale pricing model is actually complex) or were not told the massive potential downsides. And when the cost of keeping where you live at a livable temperature runs into the mid-three-digits per month during the summer, you're going to jump at the idea of slashing that by two-thirds.

This is consent in the same way that clicking "agree" on a 15,000-word EULA is consent. It isn't.

Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#47
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding a 100+ amp contactor and two way communication to every existing meter will add a lot to the cost of the equipment required at a user site.

Why do you have to do this on the meter side? Cant your power company shut off your power from their end?

[deleted]

Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not in Texas and not on Gridly but am on a time of use plan. I am subscribed to text messages when prices go up and they provide a website with the time of use pricing.

What do you do if you're away from home one day, and you get a text message that electricity prices have increased 100x? Can you cut power to your house?

I suppose I’d have to call a neighbor. But the vast majority of my energy costs happen when I’m home in the form of ac & appliance use.

The text is triggered if retail rates go above 14c per kWh for more than 30 minutes. That’s about 7x our normal peak rate.

Last week saw the highest prices I’ve seen going up to 40c at one point.

I’ll also note that I’m on budget billing which normalizes monthly fluctuations. No idea what the agreement is in the case of one of these tail events but I suspect it involves lots of publicity and regulators.

Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not in Texas and not on Gridly but am on a time of use plan. I am subscribed to text messages when prices go up and they provide a website with the time of use pricing.

What do you do if you're away from home one day, and you get a text message that electricity prices have increased 100x? Can you cut power to your house?

Step 1 would likely be to use your smartphone app to set your Internet enabled thermostat down to its lowest setting, probably 55F. High enough that the pipes don't freeze, but low enough to save energy. Probably not cooking anything either unless you have a gas grill. Definitely not plugging in the electric car. If this happens during the middle of summer then you turn the A/C off and hope the house can coast for the rest of the day without melting anything. At least in the summer you can grill outside.

But honestly, it boggles my mind that anybody would opt for these sorts of power plans with effectively unlimited downside and fairly marginal upside. Who wants this kind of stress in their life? Doesn't Texas already have pretty cheap power thanks to all of the wind and deregulation? Isn't that why they are in this mess in the first plate?

Re: On power markets, snow storms, and $16k power bills

#50

There are some interesting details here but let's be suuuper clear, nobody in the residential sector consented to a 12,000% increase in power costs or a $5,000 - $16,000 power bill this month. I think the article tries extremely hard to forgive everyone involved aside from the residents who have now been completely devastated by this. The only real acknowledgement that residents have truly suffered something they did…

"Consented" in the sense of "agreed to a legal contract that permitted that outcome" or in the sense of "anticipated at the time they signed up to the contract that this was an outcome they would experience"?
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