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Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

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Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IOPS is measuring throughput for parallel operations. Optane SSDs have extremely low latency , which is critical for sequential operations. Most operating systems have long phases of largely single-threaded synchronous I/O, or nearly so. They certainly can't maintain queue depth required to even approach 500K IOPS.

At queue depth 1 the 980 pro delivers 20k reads per second / 45k writes per second. That still sounds like a huge amount. Optane is faster, but is it enough to matter outside some extremely demanding niches?

The other reason Optane excels is latency. This is why single-threaded use cases, like system boot, love it.

IOPS do not tell the whole story here. Consider disk A, at 1M IOPS, against disk B, at 1k IOPS. Suppose the workload is light, at only 500 IOPS, which are "small" enough to service quickly. Which disk is higher performing?

You might say they're both capable of the task, so just get the cheaper one. This is wrong. Assume, for sake of a simple argument, that disk A can respond in 1us to these requests, and disk B in 1ms. That is, they'd be able to hit "max IOPS" on these requests, if only you have enough. Then disk A services the whole thing in 500us per second, or 0.05% used, and disk B in 500ms per second, or 50% used.

So disk A is in fact actually 1000x faster, if you're waiting on its result. Which, for single-threaded operations, you often are. If you're instead optimizing for throughput, you don't care.

Either point of view can be correct, at different times or for different systems. Ignorance that both points of view exist is how things like bufferbloat are everywhere now.

Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are gaming enthusiasts a small market (in dollar terms)? I think the move is probably somewhat reasonable in terms of cutting costs, but I wonder why they didn't just license the technology to someone with experience selling to gamers (e.g. Corsair).

PC gaming market is about the size of the console market.

But people who would buy special equipment that isn't price competitive with non-"gaming" alternatives is only a small portion of that.

Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#43
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely curious, are disk writes a big part of booting? I'd imagine it to be mostly large sequential reads. Especially since operating systems have a long history of booting from HDD and still need reasonable support for that, I wouldn't expect the boot process has a whole lot of disk thrashing. I also can't think of a reason why it would need to.

Preface: My experience is primarily on Windows (required for, among others, crappy enterprise CAD software). Linux is probably different. Most developer workstations have had SSDs for many years. This applies to the Windows 10 developers, too. So they haven't paid any real attention to performance regressions on HDDs, since it still works . It's just slow. But it's a HDD so who cares? That means there's now a lot of…

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fastest-windows-10-boot... I should have just googled it. So 4 seconds for optane and 5 for Samsung. I'm surprised, but it looks legit. Though I wonder now if pcie4 changes things since the article was published.

Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#44

Software hasn't improved in 40 years, really... and now hardware is starting its downhill slide as well. Good grief.

The very HP Convertible I'm typing on has an Intel Optane drive in it.. for me, this really is the fastest computer I'll ever have, and it really is all downhill from here when this thing dies.

I really meant it, even if I was too grief stricken to express it better.

For me, this marks the end of Moore's law.

Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#45
post #7

I'd like to express my thoughts on this, from business exec point of view. Consumer-grade Optane SSDs are not competetive with flash memory, simple as that. On performance and write endurance, flash-based SSD are "good enough", while also much better on cost-per-GB vs Optane. This reduces available market for Optane to gaming enthusiasts and similar customers - a very small slice of the total PC market. Now, for ente…

From a large-scale purchasing and architectural roadmap point of view, this tells me they won’t enjoy the economies of scale that flash enjoys, and the enterprise drives will be dead in a few years.

Either that, or they’re transitioning to offer consumer grade NVDIMMs, but the hardware APIs for those are really difficult to take advantage of for general purpose compute.

Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#46
post #3

Typical intel move. They start something and then kill it shortly after if the new product did not have the massive impact they hoped for. I would not be surprised if they kill the optane enterprise products or simply dont develop a new version and some improvements in ssds will make optane not very interesting as it would not be much better but dramatically more expensive.

If something doesn’t have the business impact a company hopes, it seems perfectly reasonable to kill it. Focus matters. Messaging matters. If a sub-market is break-even or only slightly profitable, get out of it.

From a short term business point of view sure.

For a customer heavily invested in this new tech it's not great. Those will complain all over. It will hurt customer confidence in the long term. Meaning your new products have even less chance at mass adoption even if they're really good. Customers appreciate when you stand behind your products.

Consider companies like Google that are well known for shutting down services. And they're usually free, yet still people are now more hesitant to put their stuff in it.

Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#47
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But does that make a noticeable difference? I think a consumer SSD like the samsung 970 EVO PLUS has over 500k IOPS. Would you shave more than milliseconds from the boot time by going higher?

IOPS is measuring throughput for parallel operations. Optane SSDs have extremely low latency , which is critical for sequential operations. Most operating systems have long phases of largely single-threaded synchronous I/O, or nearly so. They certainly can't maintain queue depth required to even approach 500K IOPS.

[deleted]

Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IOPS is measuring throughput for parallel operations. Optane SSDs have extremely low latency , which is critical for sequential operations. Most operating systems have long phases of largely single-threaded synchronous I/O, or nearly so. They certainly can't maintain queue depth required to even approach 500K IOPS.

At queue depth 1 the 980 pro delivers 20k reads per second / 45k writes per second. That still sounds like a huge amount. Optane is faster, but is it enough to matter outside some extremely demanding niches?

IOPS are actually meaningless assuming conventional filesystem APIs. In the context of those APIs, IOPS are just a different way of writing MB/s except you get to show off that your block sizes are smaller.

Latency is a much bigger factor with conventional filesystem APIs. If you had fully async filesystem APIs that read offset x1 on file f1, offset x1 on file2, offset x100 on file f100 all at the same time then you would see linear scaling and the difference between Optane and NAND would grow smaller. However, that would require learning a new and much harder paradigm (you now have to be aware of parallelism inside SSDs). Optane is a simple upgrade that requires no software changes.

Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If something doesn’t have the business impact a company hopes, it seems perfectly reasonable to kill it. Focus matters. Messaging matters. If a sub-market is break-even or only slightly profitable, get out of it.

From a short term business point of view sure. For a customer heavily invested in this new tech it's not great. Those will complain all over. It will hurt customer confidence in the long term. Meaning your new products have even less chance at mass adoption even if they're really good. Customers appreciate when you stand behind your products. Consider companies like Google that are well known for shutting down servic…

Not permitting several weeks’ notice for a “last time buy” is crappy, though that’s fairly unusual and not a well understood action in the consumer segment as compared to enterprise, so I’m not sure that you or I could personally have gotten any in any meaningful way. They’re still available in-channel (NewEgg and Dell both have them at normal-seeming prices) right now for consumers who need them, which is effectively a “last time buy” in the consumer segment. I’d be surprised if Dell was not given a last-time buy notice.

I’m not nearly as convinced that “Intel once stopped selling Optane drives for consumers; you can’t trust them” is anywhere near as likely (nor valid) as “Intel has made major mis-steps in microcode resulting in serious degradation of performance after the sale for mitigations, seems to be struggling with their next process step change, and is facing major pressures now not just from AMD but now from ARM and Apple”.

In some sense the Optane decision is like the Google one. “Should I bet something important on this technology that isn’t making the company any money?” is a very fair question to ask.

Re: Intel Kills Off All Optane-Only SSDs for Consumers, No Replacements Planned

#50
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preface: My experience is primarily on Windows (required for, among others, crappy enterprise CAD software). Linux is probably different. Most developer workstations have had SSDs for many years. This applies to the Windows 10 developers, too. So they haven't paid any real attention to performance regressions on HDDs, since it still works . It's just slow. But it's a HDD so who cares? That means there's now a lot of…

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fastest-windows-10-boot... I should have just googled it. So 4 seconds for optane and 5 for Samsung. I'm surprised, but it looks legit. Though I wonder now if pcie4 changes things since the article was published.

That's my point in the other post. Is that 1 second boot time gain really worth the money? Not arguing against it for heavy duty enterprise workloads. But as a consumer, at one point the extra performance is wasted on them.
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