Terms of Service; Didn’t Read • Hacker News Board

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#41

Post by Wowfunhappy » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

zxienin wrote: post #38

gorgoiler wrote: post #6

If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…

The way website.com will start dealing with that, is to block end users to spend legally minimum amount of time on ToS.

Then they will lose users, though.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#42

Post by vsareto » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

II2II wrote: post #18

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…

It's the same thing with leases and technology.

This apartment has smart home things (hub, A/C, smart lock) that's controlled through a mobile app. The lease says you're responsible for supplying the internet for the devices and calling the company when the app or devices are not working, but the apartment complex insists they take care of it (they really do, they didn't lie). But there were no solid answers on why this section was in the lease and it was completely false as I haven't had to support or provide internet for any of the devices.

This led to: "I don't want to support it, I'd rather remove them and just use a physical key" but they weren't able to remove them, nor remove the section from the lease.

I get it, they aren't lawyers, but it's weird when you read it and realize how different things are in the real world compared to some of the agreements we all sign (completely the opposite, in this case). If it came to it, I have no doubt I'd still be held to the terms of the lease though.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#43

Post by dsukhin » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

avel wrote: post #28

stunt wrote: post #10

I think we need some universal standards for ToS. The same way we have some visual rating signs for movies and video games. Most of it should be regular and easy to categories. And there should be a separate rating for how many irregular terms are in there.

We tried that for Privacy Policies with P3P ( https://www.w3.org/P3P/ ) and we failed.

This is fascinating, I didn't realize there was a spec for this for the web.

But this begs the question: Apple Privacy Labels "caught on" because Apple has unilateral control to enforce them in the App Store. If ostensibly the same idea for the WWW did not catch on, is the problem (1) the lack of enforcement/economic incentive mechanisms on the decentralized web or (2) that consumers really didn't care/know enough to create/enforce such free market incentives?

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#44

Post by alexfromapex » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

II2II wrote: post #18

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…

I had a quiz in middle school where the end of the directions said to ignore everything and put down your pencil. Really wish all schools taught this.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#45

Post by alsetmusic » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

gorgoiler wrote: post #6

If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…

I don’t think time spent would matter if someone took the deliberate action of clicking “Accept.” It’s like arguing that you didn’t read a contract before you signed. You still signed.

I’m not arguing in favor of TOS. I just don’t buy this.

The “I do not agree,” method reminds me of the tactics of “sovereign citizens.” They try to game things via highly specific language. People think they can loophole the system, but still get snared. SCs still go to jail.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#46

Post by Enginerrrd » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

zxienin wrote: post #38

gorgoiler wrote: post #6

If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…

The way website.com will start dealing with that, is to block end users to spend legally minimum amount of time on ToS.

That won't work. The real answer is to make it 100 words or less.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#47

Post by vntok » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

gorgoiler wrote: post #6

If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…

For those reading, be aware that while signing "I do not agree" is borderline fraudulent, at least it's not clear user impersonation ie identity theft.

There are people who do similar things but sign "Daffy Duck" or even "Barack Obama". Someday they'll be in for a surprise visit.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#48

Post by Hnrobert42 » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

LadyCailin wrote: post #29

II2II wrote: post #18

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…

Just out of curiosity, what happened if you declined to sign? You flunk out of the course? Reading the TOS is pointless anyways, when declining them is very problematic for you.

What you are describing is a contact of adhesion. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract_%28contrac...

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#49

Post by byecomputer » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

1ncorrect wrote: post #26

stunt wrote: post #10

I think we need some universal standards for ToS. The same way we have some visual rating signs for movies and video games. Most of it should be regular and easy to categories. And there should be a separate rating for how many irregular terms are in there.

I’ve been chewing on an idea for a while around programmatically handling license agreements, basically each clause is checked atomically, with flow logic as necessary. You could have a personal profile, possibly multiple, of things you’ve decided to accept or reject beforehand, and the anomalous clauses would be presented as a list to review. Providers would have an incentive to reduce the friction by limiting scope…

So the idea is a form with a checklist?

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#50

Post by II2II » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

LadyCailin wrote: post #29

II2II wrote: post #18

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…

Just out of curiosity, what happened if you declined to sign? You flunk out of the course? Reading the TOS is pointless anyways, when declining them is very problematic for you.

I really don't know what would have happened. There was nothing worth objecting to, though it was certainly worth reading to understand the boundaries while accessing their system (i.e. it was for course use). Even if there was anything objectionable, the student may have to drop the course (rather than flunk it).

Overall, I view blindly signing ToS as the foundation for the situation we see today: these agreements exist in cases where they probably should not or include terms that are increasingly detrimental to the recipient. There is a bit of a difference between outlining the rules for accessing a service and granting a service the right to sell your data or stripping away avenues for legal recourse.