Live data from Hacker News

Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

businessinsider.com

41–45 of 45 posts

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#41
post #40
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This was a riot organized to specifically stop the transfer of power. How? This is the part I'm missing. Yes it got stalled for a few hours while everything was going down, but after folks got their selfies and pilfered swag it was done. I'm not sure this motely crew really anticipated squaring off against the US Secret Service and National Guard to indefinitely suppress the transfer of power.

> How? Imagine the legislators didn't escape - that a majority of them were killed. Trump and his people use this as an excuse to illegally "send the vote back to the states." Kelli Ward suggested this while the mob was in the capitol. We were not far from that scenario.

> Imagine the legislators didn't escape - that a majority of them were killed.

Less bloodily, imagine the boxes of electoral vote certificates didn't escape in the hasty evacuation, and the certificates from th contested states were selectively destroyed, so that when the session was able to resume and the certificates were counted, they weren't present. (Remember that a recent public scheme to overturn the results was a campaign to simply have Pence not open the certificates from the states whose votes Trump disputes toe exclude them from the count.)

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#42
post #6

coup /ko͞o/ noun 1. a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government. Sudden? Sure. Violent? Yes but on the lower end of the spectrum of human conflict. One person got shot by the police, one died of a heart attack, the rest had ‘medical emergencies’. (Edit: An officer died after being attacked by one of the rioters.) The part I’m not understanding is where was the attempt to seize power?

It wasn’t. All this talk of a coop is ridiculous. A bunch of idiots pushed through lacking security and wandered around the building for a short period. No power was seized. Just an angry mob that was allowed to get out of control.

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#43
post #6

coup /ko͞o/ noun 1. a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government. Sudden? Sure. Violent? Yes but on the lower end of the spectrum of human conflict. One person got shot by the police, one died of a heart attack, the rest had ‘medical emergencies’. (Edit: An officer died after being attacked by one of the rioters.) The part I’m not understanding is where was the attempt to seize power?

This section of the article puts it in language commonly used to describe coup attempts:

> One NATO source set the stage, using terms more commonly used to describe unrest in developing countries.

"The defeated president gives a speech to a group of supporters where he tells them he was robbed of the election, denounces his own administration's members and party as traitors, and tells his supporters to storm the building where the voting is being held," the NATO intelligence official said.

"The supporters, many dressed in military attire and waving revolutionary-style flags, then storm the building where the federal law-enforcement agencies controlled by the current president do not establish a security cordon, and the protesters quickly overwhelm the last line of police.

"The president then makes a public statement to the supporters attacking the Capitol that he loves them but doesn't really tell them to stop," the official said. "Today I am briefing my government that we believe with a reasonable level of certainty that Donald Trump attempted a coup that failed when the system did not buckle."

The insurrectionists/rioters were not simply attempting to disrupt the vote. Many of them explicitly posted on social media about intending to kill members of congress. The woman who was shot and died, Ashli Babbitt, said on social media the day before, that “Nothing will stop us. They can try and try and try but the storm is here and it is descending upon DC in less than 24 hours …. dark to light!” The Storm is an explicit QAnon conspiracy forecast event where Trump / his supporters would conduct mass executions of the democrats and his opponents.

Similarly, many of the insurrectionists were explicitly looking for Mike Pence in the Capital. They had weapons, they had zip ties for detaining people, several had pipe bombs. If they would have found any of their targets (or the full group of lawmakers on lockdown) and a hostage / execution scenario began, that would have created a power vacuum / level of chaos that could have opened the door to Trump trying to stay in power.

So this was clearly a coup attempt -- a pathetic one that wasn't well executed. But the folks who stormed the building were explicit in their motivations -- to stop the legitimate functioning of government, to foment revolution, and to force the world to keep Trump in power.

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#44
post #30
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it violent? Yes, it was illegal entry by force. Was there plunder? Yes, property was stolen. Was there pillaging? Yes, property was damaged. Was the capitol occupied by an unlawful force having evicting the lawful power? Yes. The entire Congress was evacuated under the threat. A sloppy mob sacked the U.S. capitol, and occupied it for a few hours. If this exact same thing happened to the White House, would you cal…

I think you've encapsulated my problem with the coup talk. Too much imagination and not enough evidence. If they interview people from that group and an actual plan emerges beyond mess up the Capitol building and steal shit I'll eat crow.

The president did ask for this. He's been asking for months, by spewing lies about the election being rigged, a fraud, and stolen. Lies about how to set aside that election's outcome. Recounts and lawsuits are cool. Shaking down legislators to undo it is not OK. It's not ethical, moral, or legal.

Threatening various state authorities to undo it, including constant ridicule and lies directed at Georgia and Pennsylvania officials what they should do and could do is part of this plan. That is not ethical, moral, or legal. Yet he did do that, we have audio of it. And it is a crime against democracy.

And then the big lie that Congress could change this on January 6th. Trump told this lie, over 100 Republicans in the Congress spread this lie.

And then on Wednesday, winding up his supporters at a rally at The Ellipse, telling them more lies about a stolen, fraudulent election, telling them they can't allow it to happen and should fight fight fight. And also proposed that Mike Pence could unilaterally just declare Trump the winner. We have video, audio, and transcripts of that actual plan and effort.

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-sav...

Had this coup attempt worked? Trump absolutely would have taken it. He would accept a second term on this basis and he would have bragged about it. You know he would. I know he would. And I know that you know that he would. Because that's what he does, it's what he has always done.

Had the Republicans in Congress had the majority, would they have gone through this anti-democratic charade? Set aside legally certified results from the states? This is a national security story. You don't like it. I don't like it. You are being timid about it, and I can understand that. And this is why I totally understand your cowardice, I get it, let me put a fine line on it.

This country is founded on violence. It is founded on two revolutionary wars. The first is the war of independence, and it is unquestionably about representation, and self-determination to establish self rule via elections. It was bloody. Far bloodier was the American Civil War. Lincoln won an election, the minority losers did not like that he won and asserted the right to break up the union. Lincoln said no, they must accept their loss or democracy is ruined. We fought a war, in effect, to force the losers to accept the result of an election. We murdered each other over an election.

And that was not the end of it. And it is relevant today. Reconstruction was ended in 1877 with the Hayes Tilden Compromise. That resulted in the Jim Crow era. It resulted in lynchings. These murders, morally worse than the Civil War because it forced freed Blacks to disproportionate shoulder the sins of this society. Yet again. Now, you tell me what kind of person says we need to use the Hayes Tilden Compromise as a model to to resolve the 2020 election question, which is not a question. Questioning its veracity is a lie. What do you think the end game is? Just making money? You hope that's all it is about is stealing money from racist fools with too much money. But what kind of person is Senator Ted Cruz of Texas, for proposing this specific solution?

You might think this is mere politics. I think it is language that asks for violence, it begs for people to give up on a peaceful civil approach to resolving disputes and just revert to murdering each other. It is not that I have an imagination for it, I am all too well schooled on the history of humanity and especially the United States, and the actual murders that have happened as a result of election disputes, over self-determination disputes.

Had these people succeeded, Trump would have gladly accepted the win. He has made it clear over the past two months he will accept the most craven bullshit reasons to claim he has won, including claiming he has won by a landslide when he plainly has not.

This is an incendiary blood lie, to falsely claim that elections are stolen when they are not. The entire intent is to commit a fraud followed by another. And it is a crime against democracy. Had it succeeded, it would have had not one tiny bit of legitimacy, even by Trump's own supporters. They, like him, simply would have accepted the win anyway.

And we would absolutely murder each other for that. We would. There's ample evidence of it. I do not want to find out. But I know it to be true.

Trump's white nationalist, white supremacist supporters are appalled at being shot at by police this week. Only BLM rally goers are supposed to be shot at by police! White people should not have to comply with the police on demand! Black people should!

White nationalism must be made to submit to equality, to truth, and to democracy. If they do not do it peacefully, the foundation of this country demands that it will be done with murder. That is America's past, present, and future. There is no escape. It must be confronted and people are going to have to stop being cowards about the rampant white supremacy of this presidency. It started that way on the racist lie of birtherism which Republicans, overwhelmingly, profited from. And it's now ending on a series of lies that know no bounds that are at their core both white nationalist and anti-democratic, one in the same thing because they know when all legal votes are counted they lose.

I understand you don't want to call it a coup attempt. But that's what it is.

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#45
post #3

> Another video showed a police officer allowing a rioter to take a selfie with him inside the Capitol The alternative for that officer was violence. While surrounded. The lies coming out of the media (which normally lie he took the selfie with the protesters) at the moment are insane. Sure, "Trump deliberately attempted a coup".... because he's mentally ill. But the media is actually pulling off a real coup by consi…

Boring articles don't get shared. Outrageous ones do. It's just businesses

why is this on a tech incubator site anyway? oh yeah, if they can convince young/foreign/naive people to come here for all of their news, then they have real power...for a while
Post reply on HN