Keep in mind that a key feature of government is having a monopoly on violence within its jurisdiction...
That is absolutely true, but what are you implying in this context? Was Taiwan harsher with draconian lockdown policies early on?
Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
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Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
#42Taiwan has had a total of 815 cases and 7 deaths [2] in a population of 23 million.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_technology
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Taiwan
Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm guessing you're referring to the probability/possibility of large, untracked or suppressed outbreaks in other countries - India, Iran, Russia, China, Brazil, etc. Depending on the source of your data, extrapolations on personal experience or rumor or innuendo, or distrust of different government systems, there may very well be massive outbreaks - on the level or exceeding per capita infections in the US. Frankly,…
I think you are mistaken to lump China in those countries. People are constantly underestimating the Chinese relationship with contagion. I guarantee that China would not be able to hide any major covid outbreaks. Word would escape to outside relatives. Chinese people are extremely averse to contagion, coupled with a deep surveillance infrastructure and strong authoritarian government they are in a solid position to…
Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll address why one would listen: to learn about some ways not to be the epicenter of a pandemic ever again.
Anyone at all responsible for the US being one of the worst countries hit is not browsing HN right now looking to learn new perspectives.
Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Would the U.S. ever take a similar approach? Would the US ever admit their exceptionalism is perhaps flawed? Would the Europeans ever admit their exceptionalism led to ignoring Taiwan's alarm bells? I highly doubt it. They are not stupid, they know what's going on in China and they are not telling everybody else because they are worried of losing credibility as leaders. Almost all of our current response assumes th…
Overall yes, but exactly what you mean by "China" here is highly ambiguous.
> They are not stupid, they know what's going on in China and they are not telling everybody else because they are worried of losing credibility as leaders.
means. The rest of the post is about Taiwan. Is the insinuation that the politicians know they controlled it better in Taiwan, the PRC, or both? Or is this about stuff in Xinjiang totally separate from quarantining?
Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
#46The US government is full of corruption and closed-source companies basically destroying almost all open source collaborative efforts based on greed. Unless a leader steps in that truly understands this and works to get rid of it, then I don't think the US will ever be able to compete.
When a new person comes in to head an agency and bring about positive technological change, someone who genuinely knows technology and its potential, they're usually unprepared for what they see. Their tenure is usually time-limited and they hope to bring about change fast. Certainly not stick around for 8+ years to see things through, because that just doesn't happen and it really does take that long.
For one simple thing they're trying to do, they find out that it's locked in by multiple years-long contracts that aren't synchronized with their timelines. For example, a contract for a CDN expires possibly years after they would realistically stick around so they can't change that. Or a contract for cloud services they don't want in the long run might need to be renewed soon so they might choose to renew it so they can focus on their projects instead of migrating and upgrading existing pieces for the next few years, because it really takes awhile. Or they find out that four separate departments purchased four separate transcription services at different times and for different lengths, so attempting to standardize it is wasteful on the account of having already paid for the service a few times over.
I'm describing an environment with lots of moving parts, many that have been locked-in for unworkable periods of time. An environment that has many individuals working at duplicative or cross-purposes, not even intentionally - just because they didn't coordinate. An environment that will take years for someone to map out before they can truly grasp what's happening or streamline it. The new person who comes in now has to deal with existing contracts, things that might be counterproductive to what they are trying to do and they can't be just canceled or legally or even just easily modified. At that point, ... sadly, many such people just go for cosmetic appearances of progress. Even well meaning individuals - and entire groups - end up settling for a shortcut and then bolting.
That's what happens on an agency level. But what about centralizing and standardizing technology?
Turns out, that's been attempted several times and forgotten. Before GSA's 18F group came to be in the aftermath of the healthcare site debacle, there was another group that was put together and elevated to do just that- bring innovation and centralization to GSA and to the federal government. So, when 18F got stood up as a group to revamp tech federally, a group meant to do innovation centrally was fundamentally duplicated in that very step. There were role and identity collisions and they had to spend some time integrating while growing and anyone dealing with 18F in the early years first looked up who they were really dealing with - as in, the pedigree of old or new blood.
Whether any strategic lessons were learned here is anyone's guess, but, people who know better have argued that this innovation function shouldn't be centralized but evenly deployed in agencies. As in certainly bring in more tech savvy people to federal service, but spread them out permanently and empower them.
GSA's 18F tried to do that in a limited fashion. 18F is a group of well meaning individuals who've done a lot and certainly demonstrated their expertise. But, to be blunt, some of their work has clearly hit those very impassable barriers, the contract limits, the invisible limits anyway despite the effort. They've - I think - attempted to do good and embed their employees in agencies when they approach a project so that goes toward spreading people out in the field, but, I don't think their shadowing times and force sizes were realistic. As large as they might have gotten at their peak, it was nowhere enough to cover the workforce size I described.
And when engaged, they've certainly been treated badly by resident long term employees, who considered them a flavor of the month and expected the projects they were engaging with on to be minor and short-lived. Because, for one, they've seen what happened to the previous innovation group. If you look through 18F's github repository and really dig into some of the larger projects they've worked on, you can see the barriers they ran into and limits of what agencies were willing to engage on. One particular site had been rebuilt by them, and --- I confess much improved, both visually and in content. However, the login function would take you to a vendor site that was built a decade ago and contracted for another decade. Too complex to rebuild, surely. And too vital to mess with. So the site redesign had a jarring transition to a part where they couldn't contribute to the actual functional piece.
This was just my attempt to explain why things aren't changing.
Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
#47It's hard to tell why you might want to listen to this from just the title: "But Taiwan has also been taking a relatively experimental approach to the pandemic with technology. Like working with civic hackers to code its way out of the pandemic. Today on the show, we dive into Taiwan's pandemic policies and ask: Would the U.S. ever take a similar approach?"
> Would the U.S. ever take a similar approach? Would the US ever admit their exceptionalism is perhaps flawed? Would the Europeans ever admit their exceptionalism led to ignoring Taiwan's alarm bells? I highly doubt it. They are not stupid, they know what's going on in China and they are not telling everybody else because they are worried of losing credibility as leaders. Almost all of our current response assumes th…
Huh? The savings rate for the rich zooming coworkers from the hamptons is huge. Yes, pursue counter-cyclic policies, but given the rich people unable to consume services as before, raising taxes on them is hardly pro-cyclic.
Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
#48This is a 24 minute Planet Money podcast named Fork the Government but the HN title has been changed to match the title in the HTML header. The show interviews two civic hackers [1] Howard Wu and Audrey Tang (Taiwan's Digital Minister) about the technical aspects of Taiwan's coronavirus response. Taiwan has had a total of 815 cases and 7 deaths [2] in a population of 23 million. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civi…
They also closed their borders to China in January, and in March to the rest of the world. The US, by comparison, has had 7.2M international arrivals in 2020 -- and that's just non-citizens:
https://www.trade.gov/visitor-arrivals-program-i-94-data
Point being: it's easy to overstate the importance of measures like these. If you had to draw one bright-line difference between Taiwan's response, and the response of ~most other nations, it's that they closed their borders early and kept them closed.
Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
#49Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes the current Taiwanese government is truly one of the world's finest, and the US governance one of the worst. One of the reason I enjoy reading https://pedestrianobservations.com/ and other in depth discussions of public transit is that it's really quite the barometer for overall civic function. The rate of new public transit is also a fine derivative, and as such even more "low latency".
Something I really enjoy at Taiwan is the bike sharing system they've put all around the country. Liking it at a point where I've wrote an essaye about it[1]. It's cheap, everywhere, and built on a really high standard [1] https://erickhun.com/posts/taiwan-youbike-bike-sharing/