What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#41

Post by ogre_codes » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #2

A description of the Coasting system at Park Tool, https://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-corner/shimano-coastin...

This whole premise is crazy.

Automatic shifting on bike is not a good idea. While people are terrible at shifting at first, they can learn to get better. Automatic shifting never improves.

It's meant to be simple, but basic maintainability is a nightmare. Changing a tire requires 3 tools and about 10 steps just to pull the tire off. Thats bonkers. Pretty much eliminates any chance of roadside tire fixes.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#42

Post by JNRowe » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

redelbee wrote: post #24

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people th…

Full agreement about how to increase ridership. I've been lucky enough to work somewhere with good storage, power for charging¹, great security and that really changes the dynamic for cycling to work.

Re: showers at work. I've been wondering what is going to happen to cycling to the office once people start going back en masse.

For example, the shower unit at our office has only been available to people who work in the clean room environment since March, and I just can't see how we go back to common use in the foreseeable future.

And frankly, if people start going back to full-time without showers I'd probably like to see cycling use drop(or at least for people like me who tend to arrive lycra'd up on a road bike).

¹ Ridiculously that seems to include lights, computers, Garmin Varia, gears, etc at this point.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#43

Post by ogre_codes » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

redelbee wrote: post #24

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people th…

You had me up to this point:

> What if all bike companies (and component manufacturers like Shimano) spent all their R&D budgets on education and lobbying instead of better technology?

The R&D budget of the entire bike industry is not going to move this needle.

What has moved this needle is the fact that automotive infrastructure has become a huge obstacle to growth in big cities. Most big cities cannot increase road infrastructure to support growth so they are more or less forced to support denser forms of transportation like cycling or stop growing.

The other big thing is eBikes.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#44

Post by brudgers » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

zachrose wrote: post #4

The core thesis behind the program is exciting. The bike industry in America exists primarily serve a relatively small group of enthusiasts, but it doesn't have to. There's no equivalent to the Dutch department store bikes that, if memory serves correctly, were cheap but simple, low-maintenance, and better outfitted for casual riding (fenders, a light, a lock). As the article suggests, I suspect it's more a problem o…

A good approximation of the geographic similarity between the Netherlands and US is the degree to which Baghdad is considered in the Geography of the Netherlands. At least insofar as Alaska and Hawaii are ignored.

The UN member state equivalence abstraction does not shrink the practical differences in physical reality. Dutch transport infrastructure is built to a much smaller scale because that’s what’s politically warranted. It can ignore problems of the Alps, Caucuses, and Balkins.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#45

Post by soared » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 8:12 PM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #31

soared wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are misunderstanding my point and injecting your own dislike for bikers where it isn't relevant. The difference is looking like you know what you're doing, and looking like you have no idea what you're doing. Regardless of the situation (biking, at work, or talking to women at bars) not knowing what you're doing and having that be publicly visible can be a huge hurdle to overcome.

>You are misunderstanding my point and injecting your own dislike for bikers where it isn't relevant. Am I? You typed this, not me. >They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool with a slick bike and low profile gear, while they are riding a walmart bike in baggy shorts with a dumb helmet, while visible to hundreds of people in cars. How exactly did I misinterpret that? You think…

I am sorry that the clothing cyclists wear illicits so much anger in you.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#46

Post by soared » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 8:13 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #38

soared wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It almost seems like Shimano was trying to get all the benefits of a single speed (low maintenance, reliable, zero-though when riding), but with gears. Single speeds are amazingly cheap, simple, near-zero maintenance.. but are not good for casual riders unless your city/metro is very flat.

In my experience the reliability of single speed bikes is overstated. Several times when I rented or borrowed single speeds the chain kept dropping when I pedaled hard over rough roads. Sure that problem can be prevented through proper maintenance but in some circumstances it's sure nice to have a proper derailleur maintaining chain tension.

The chain should be tensioned enough to be impossible to fall off, so those bikes were just not set up correctly. But that is still a good point about problems people can have with bikes.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#47

Post by brnt » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 8:16 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #25

brnt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dutch person here. The thing you foreigners don't get is that cycling shouldn't be regarded as a sport. All your problems with cycling stem from that misconception.

In my opinion, Casual biking cannot exist when you have to tolerate being 12 inches from a 2 ton death machine going 45 MPH.

I agree, I have lived abroad in such circumstances for a number of years. Local cyclists were hard to convince that they were not very good at advocating the bicycle as a mode of daily transport.

Getting cars under control is certainly the first thing that must happen, but cyclists running red lights and being worried about their 'gear' are a nuisance everywhere. They are no more tolerated in the Netherlands than outside.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#48

Post by EpicEng » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 8:23 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #45

EpicEng wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are misunderstanding my point and injecting your own dislike for bikers where it isn't relevant. Am I? You typed this, not me. >They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool with a slick bike and low profile gear, while they are riding a walmart bike in baggy shorts with a dumb helmet, while visible to hundreds of people in cars. How exactly did I misinterpret that? You think…

I am sorry that the clothing cyclists wear illicits so much anger in you.

Right. You make a pretty plain statement, I disagree, and I'm a troll. Ridiculous. Whatever you have to tell yourself bud.

Edit: Seems you edited that bit out huh? Now I'm just angry. Ok.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#49

Post by throwaway0a5e » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

sideshowb wrote: post #33

redelbee wrote: post #24

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people th…

All the things you list are accurate... Also, more 20mph speed limits on urban routes useful to cyclists. Cheap and effective for creating a more cycling friendly environment.

To paraphrase current civil engineering doctrine:

A sign doesn't do anything to turn a four lane boulevard into a road people drive 20 on. The enforcement needed to back up the sign is not the kind of thing people put up with in the western world (a few pockets of Europe notwithstanding). You need to actually design the road to make 20mph a reasonable speed.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#50

Post by twblalock » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 10:22 PM UTC

dashundchen wrote: post #23

jablan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, although I am hobbyist bike mechanic, I never heard of Coasting before. Frankly, doesn't sound very attractive - a complicated (proprietary) automatic gear system relying on functioning (proprietary) front hub dynamo... All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears.

> All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears. It's definitely easy to learn once explained, and every enthusiast knows - but as a cyclist living near a popular bike route, I see a lot of casual riders who appear to have no idea how to use their gears. The most common thing I see are riders with the cranked up in a high gear on flat land, and y…

Part of the problem is selling front and rear derailleur gearing to cyclists for whom it does not make sense.

Internal gear hubs make a lot more sense for casual cyclists -- they are easier to learn, they can be shifted when the bicycle is not moving, and they are far less likely to drop a chain during shifting than derailleur gearing. They are also better protected from weather and impact.

Almost all of the utility bicycles I've seen in Japan and Europe had internal gear hubs. I didn't see many people commuting on the kind of bicycles that American cycling advocates seem to prefer.