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Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

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Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#41

Post by AnthonyMouse »

jocker12 wrote: post #14
underseacables wrote: post #7

I’m a huge fan of Elon Musk so take this with a grain of salt, but the company has totally misled and overhyped the self driving feature. It’s almost like a wink and a nod, giving people a false perception, and that’s wrong.

Under a new proposal from the UK‘s Law Commission, the “user in charge” of the vehicle would not be prosecuted for careless or dangerous driving, speeding, or breaking red lights when the car was in self-driving mode, the Telegraph reports. The Law Commission instead suggests that responsibility should fall on the developer or manufacturer of the hardware that enables self-driving functions on the vehicle. see https:…

Does this mean we can get number plates which are issued to the manufacturer, and the same for every vehicle from that manufacturer, so that they're not able to be used for mass surveillance of individual vehicles anymore?

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#42

Post by orange_tee »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #33
orange_tee wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So he and his passenger went to sleep fully knowing that Tesla's driving assist could fail at any moment? You mean, they were both suicidal? Much more plausible is that he is scared to implicate Tesla into this.

Tesla marks all these features as beta on the menu where you activate them, and pops up a long warning text explicitly stating the limitations. I don’t think Tesla could do much more than they already do.

Describing driving assist as "beta FSD" is already grossly misleading, and still my point stands, either they were mislead or they were suicidal.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#43

Post by eulers_secret »

emteycz wrote: post #29
gambiting wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go to Tesla's UK page and try to place an order for a brand new Model 3, it uses both "Self-Driving" and "Autopilot" on the same page. How this company hasn't been fined to oblivion yet is beyond me: https://i.postimg.cc/g0ndzbmL/image.png

The word 'autopilot' never meant reacting to anything happening around the vehicle, much less intelligently. Not a single autopilot can do more than keep the vehicle going in the direction you set (using a knob). Autonomous features are not called autopilot anywhere, ever. 'Full self driving capability' is a hardware capability, not a feature that you can turn on - it is there so you don't need to replace the hardwar…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot#Autopilot_for_ILS_la... Specifically in the case of fail-operational autopilots "[...] the approach, flare and landing can still be completed automatically." There is a whole organization responsible for defining these features of autopilots!

You can argue wikipedia isn't a valid source, but IMO that's not in good faith. So, 'autopilot' has a shifting meaning depending on aircraft capability.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#44

Post by gambiting »

jessaustin wrote: post #35
gambiting wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course Tesla hasn't solved it yet, because no one has, and in fact it probably isn't possible to solve without some magic tech that doesn't exist yet - it might be possible to fix with LIDAR, but obviously Tesla doesn't have it. All of these systems have to ignore stationary objects ahead of them, or the car would be emergency braking in too many daily situations to be usable. Simple case, at 150km/h you are…

Aren't there fully self-driving vehicles undergoing testing on normal city streets with stoplights? We could say that's a different mode than high-speed highway driving, but there are a number of locations where those modes blend into each other. Are the experimenters extra careful to avoid those locations? How long before the tech exists to address this issue?

Sure there are, and yes, they are different sets of problems though. Have a look at the British Tesla Driver Youtube channel, some of his videos are eye opening. Basically the car is in full autopilot mode, approaches an intersection, correctly slows down, waits for its turn, starts moving.....and in the middle of the turn goes BEEP BEEP BEEP and disengages entirely because the road markings aren't there and it wasn't entirely sure where to go. And now of course you're in a moving vehicle that's heading for a collision with someone else and requires IMMEDIATE attention to continue. One could(and I'm sure will) argue that the system "shouldn't be used this way". But that's a moot point, if the system is there and lets you do this, then people will use it this way.

"How long before the tech exists to address this issue?" I'm not sure if that's a problem with tech as such. We have fantastic cameras, yet famously Google's best image recognition algorithm just couple years ago would reply, with 100% confidence, that a sofa in a zebra print is in fact a Zebra, after all the stripes are there, it has 4 legs.....it must be a zebra.

So in my(personal) opinion, self driving will face the same challanges image recognition has faced - we will rapidly get 90% of it right, then the last 10% will be a massive pain to get right for decades if ever.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#45

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

orange_tee wrote: post #42
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla marks all these features as beta on the menu where you activate them, and pops up a long warning text explicitly stating the limitations. I don’t think Tesla could do much more than they already do.

Describing driving assist as "beta FSD" is already grossly misleading, and still my point stands, either they were mislead or they were suicidal.

I was highly skeptical of these systems too: for normal freeway driving, Tesla’s systems are much better than I expected them to be. There’s no way I would be comfortable enough to sleep in my car, as a programmer, but I could imagine someone getting overconfident. This has always been a major risk with semi-automated systems: I believe airplanes dialed back the functionality of autopilots to prevent pilot complacency.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#46

Post by bosie »

emteycz wrote: post #38
iso1210 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full Self Driving Capability suggests that the car has Full Capability to drive it self . That it does so as safely and legally as a human driver is implied by the word "full"

No, you should read that website, and perhaps try to buy a Tesla and see the materials. It says clearly that it's the hardware and that the software is not there yet.

That is a ludicrious distinction irrelevant to the end customer. I can't find that distinction on the website, mind sharing a link or screenshot?

Besides, how would you even establish that the hardware is self driving capable if the software isn't? You might need to change the hardware once you realise the software needs changes too?

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#47

Post by zaroth »

The last time this hit HN the article was a bit more informative.

Two people in the car with both front seats reclined, “appearing to be asleep.”

The asleep part is almost certainly sensational drivel. This is a driver with a history of reckless driving who was screwing around with his friend.

But because he was screwing around in a Tesla it is therefore newsworthy.

The seats were reclined, but there is no evidence that the driver and passenger were both asleep. They “appeared asleep” because the seats were reclined.

This was undoubtably a stupid prank. I’ll be glad for the day when kids can’t pull stupid pranks in their cars. The trade-off is we’re unlikely to truly “own” our own cars at that time, they will operate as essentially private taxis.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#48

Post by AnthonyMouse »

Cro_on wrote: post #11

I find it a little concerning that the car is allowed to drive in autopilot with the seats reclined. I thought there were warnings for taking your hands off the steering wheel? I suppose they can be ignored. But full recline is a bit OTT.

A car is not your mother. It has no obligation to prevent you from speeding or driving the wrong way down a one way street or otherwise being an idiot. And it shouldn't try, because sometimes the car has an inaccurate map or doesn't know that something unusual is happening or the sensor is broken etc.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#49

Post by orange_tee »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #45
orange_tee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Describing driving assist as "beta FSD" is already grossly misleading, and still my point stands, either they were mislead or they were suicidal.

I was highly skeptical of these systems too: for normal freeway driving, Tesla’s systems are much better than I expected them to be. There’s no way I would be comfortable enough to sleep in my car, as a programmer, but I could imagine someone getting overconfident. This has always been a major risk with semi-automated systems: I believe airplanes dialed back the functionality of autopilots to prevent pilot complacenc…

OK that is a good point. So you are saying, maybe the marketing wasn't what misled the driver, but the abilities of the system. A system that fails 1% of the time will give a the user overconfidence up until the first time it fails.

Re: Man accused of dangerous driving for sleeping in self-driving, speeding Tesla

#50

Post by albntomat0 »

robocat wrote: post #39
anonymousiam wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have told my kids many times that I expect piloted cars to be a rarity in the future. Once reliable self-driving cars are common, the difficulty in obtaining a driver license will likely increase.

It’s entirely possible that self-driving cars could be realistic about the time we all get flying cars.

Aren't flying cars and self-driving ground cars different problems, and thus likely to be solved at different times?

Self-driving is a sensing and intelligence problem, while flying seems like a mechanical, aero, and policy one.

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