Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#41

Post by dmurray » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:04 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #16

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more industry roles than academic roles for people with phds but there are FAR FAR FAR fewer research roles in industry than there are in academia and in some fields academic postdocs (or in some cases there are industry post docs) are required for even industry research positions! You can always off-ramp from research but very very hard to get back into if you do. Which is all to say the PI grant writing p…

> there are FAR FAR FAR fewer research roles in industry than there are in academia I'm not sure this is true. How many PhDs does Google alone employ in research roles? Many hundreds I'd guess. That's many many many university faculties. And that's just Google. Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Oracle, etc etc out into the long tail. We're both just guessing but I'd reckon there are far more research roles in industry tha…

I don't understand why this is downvoted. Sure it's short on evidence, but it seems a plausible argument made in good faith. If "Google research" doesn't sit right with you because showing people more ads shouldn't count as research, think Pfizer, or ABB, or Lockheed Martin.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#42

Post by michaelhoffman » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:08 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #37

michaelhoffman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you mean by my "chair". The biggest worry for most professors I talk to in grant-funded fields (which is most of the natural sciences and engineering) is not getting grant funding and having to lay off some or all members of our research group. In Canada, biomedical grant application success rates are around 14% so this is a pretty big worry. People who are pre-tenure or in organizational units wher…

> I don't know what you mean by my "chair". Becoming a professor is called getting your 'chair' isn't it? I don't know any professors who don't also have tenure - that seems a contradiction in terms to me. But if you don't know what I mean we're probably talking about different things and possibly talking at cross-purposes.

> Becoming a professor is called getting your 'chair' isn't it?

No.

> I don't know any professors who don't also have tenure - that seems a contradiction in terms to me.

Assistant professors generally do not have tenure, and at some institutions being an associate professor or full professor is no guarantee either.

> But if you don't know what I mean we're probably talking about different things and possibly talking at cross-purposes.

I know what you mean; you're just incorrect and spreading misinformation based on your limited experience.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#43

Post by analog31 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #37

michaelhoffman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you mean by my "chair". The biggest worry for most professors I talk to in grant-funded fields (which is most of the natural sciences and engineering) is not getting grant funding and having to lay off some or all members of our research group. In Canada, biomedical grant application success rates are around 14% so this is a pretty big worry. People who are pre-tenure or in organizational units wher…

> I don't know what you mean by my "chair". Becoming a professor is called getting your 'chair' isn't it? I don't know any professors who don't also have tenure - that seems a contradiction in terms to me. But if you don't know what I mean we're probably talking about different things and possibly talking at cross-purposes.

The terminology gets even stranger. ;-) A "chair" is a professorship that is funded by an endowment, that gets naming rights. So for instance, you might see someone like: "Bob Smith, Alice Q Hammond professor of situational metaphysics." What it means is that Alice Q Hammond gave a bunch of money to endow a "chaired" professorship, that Bob Smith occupies.

There are "chairs" like this in professional orchestras too.

The taxonomy of academic titles could fill a book.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#44

Post by ebg13 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #29

ebg13 wrote: post #2

Postgraduate student depression and suicidality is at horrifying proportions. The universities don't care. No one cares. Academia is super fucked and super fucked up, and it just keeps marching onward with blindfold on and fingers in ears, yelling "LA LA LA LA" as loud as possible. Academic positions are basically gone. Whatever didn't vanish completely after the 2009 recession is definitely gone now. Universities co…

> I can't think of any other area where it's the _norm_ to need a support group to not quit or kill yourself because a fortress of gold has gaslit you into a deathmarch toward a tiny-fraction-of-a-percent chance of success. Early startups?

Startups tend to at least pay you for your time and effort, I think? But I wouldn't call startup culture healthy either.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#45

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:11 AM UTC

michaelhoffman wrote: post #42

chrisseaton wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what you mean by my "chair". Becoming a professor is called getting your 'chair' isn't it? I don't know any professors who don't also have tenure - that seems a contradiction in terms to me. But if you don't know what I mean we're probably talking about different things and possibly talking at cross-purposes.

> Becoming a professor is called getting your 'chair' isn't it? No. > I don't know any professors who don't also have tenure - that seems a contradiction in terms to me. Assistant professors generally do not have tenure, and at some institutions being an associate professor or full professor is no guarantee either. > But if you don't know what I mean we're probably talking about different things and possibly talking…

I'm not making it up out of nowhere!

> Meaning "office of a professor" (1816) is extended from the seat from which a professor lectures (mid-15c.).

https://www.etymonline.com/word/chair

Seems to be in-use in the US?

https://depts.washington.edu/givemed/prof-chair/creating-you...

It even talks about how the endowment for the professorship or chair funds the professor.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#46

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:12 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #35

analog31 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. First of all, you don't get tenure right away, so your first few years are brutal -- 80 hour weeks. You typically get "start up" funding, which eventually runs out. Then you have to come up with your own money. The basic salary is 9 months. Your summer salary comes out of your own grants. Also, if you stop making research progress, your promotions and pay raises evaporate, and it becomes difficult to prom…

> you don't get tenure right away I don't understand how you can be a professor and not be tenured, so I guess we're talking about different things.

> "I don't understand how you can be a professor and not be tenured"

Sound like you are laboring under considerable misconceptions about the way academia works. To the best of my knowledge, there are no institutions that automatically grant tenure upon being hired as a professor, let alone a chair, which is considered prestigious.

There are various ranks of professorship and assistant professors (entry level) have to work their way up to earning tenure and it not rare to fail to do so; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_ranks_in_the_United_S...

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#47

Post by willis936 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

dzolob wrote: post #25

bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

Why do people stay in abusive relationships? Why do people keep falling into unhealthy habits? It’s very humane to be trapped around our own mental/emotional constructions, and getting out of them is very very hard. It happens all the time and it happens at every level.

I think it’s more to do with lack of protections. The rulemakers know fulfilling work lies in research, but doesn’t demand much to be done. Apply basics of microeconomics and you have contemporary US academia to a T.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#48

Post by OminousWeapons » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:17 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #21

michaelhoffman wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not at all the case in the fields I work in. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather be a professor than a postdoc but it is way, way more stressful.

As a professor isn't your chair funded and guaranteed? What are you stressing about? Retaining the chair?

It depends on the field, but in several fields (eg life sciences) if you do not keep output up, you will be unable to attract grant funding or industry funding. Without funding, you cannot really do any work. Additionally, without funding or papers, you will not be able to recruit students because students want to get their name on papers and want to work for prestigious groups or labs. Without students, you will be doing all the grunt work on every project you take on yourself which will eat up all your time.

You will also have newfound responsibilities such as teaching classes, and the university will expect you to teach more classes if you are not bringing in grant funding or doing prestigious research. It is not a free ride, and universities will take space from you and give it to people who can produce if you can't as space is scarce.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#49

Post by michaelhoffman » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:18 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #45

michaelhoffman wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Becoming a professor is called getting your 'chair' isn't it? No. > I don't know any professors who don't also have tenure - that seems a contradiction in terms to me. Assistant professors generally do not have tenure, and at some institutions being an associate professor or full professor is no guarantee either. > But if you don't know what I mean we're probably talking about different things and possibly talking…

I'm not making it up out of nowhere! > Meaning "office of a professor" (1816) is extended from the seat from which a professor lectures (mid-15c.). https://www.etymonline.com/word/chair Seems to be in-use in the US? https://depts.washington.edu/givemed/prof-chair/creating-you... It even talks about how the endowment for the professorship or chair funds the professor.

Yes, it is true that there are SOME professors with chairs. Not that all professors have a chair. analog31 already explained this in response to your last comment.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#50

Post by tertius » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:18 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #18

flobosg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course one can do that and it’s probably the most reasonable strategy (as opposed to another postdoc, for example). But then, what was the point of the postdoc? I’d rather move earlier into industry. It’s ultimately a gamble.

> But then what was the point of the postdoc? To continue to develop as a researcher and build up your research skills, publication portfolio, and network, ready to move into industry. If you do an ok PhD you could spend a couple of years as a postdoc refining that research and building on your foundation to really making a name for yourself and then apply to industry at your peak into a senior position.

I think this depends on the field. If you're working 5+ years at a postdoc earning no money that time would have probably been better spent in industry.