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Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#41

Post by djsumdog »

war1025 wrote: post #9
OminousWeapons wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the federal government. If you are going to shutter businesses and put people out of work, you need to pay the business owners and the employees who you have affected. Staying economically viable vs staying medically viable should have never been a tradeoff people had to make here, and Americans should all remember that when the next election rolls around.

> Americans should all remember that when the next election rolls around Unfortunately, for most people the truth is that they "like their representatives, it's all the rest that are corrupt" Plus Washington is close enough to a 50/50 split right now that you can always just say it was the other party holding everything up.

Our election processes have never been fair. Big money has typically been the largest factor. This year solidifies it .. at least for half the population. The American psyche has been split in two by a corrupt and runaway media.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#43

Post by TheBlight »

hpkuarg wrote: post #35
TheBlight wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the federal government didn't shutter any businesses. You can thank the state governors, county officials and big city mayors for that.

Big city mayors, some of whom then turned around and dined indoors at $400 a plate kind of restaurants.

Don't leave the governors out! They're enjoying the party too!

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#44

Post by coderintherye »

purple_ferret wrote: post #29

Yet the rich get richer as Congress passes 'relief' plans that allow the wealthy to sneak massive chunks of cash directly into their pockets. Here's just one example: "According to the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB), about 85% of all the approved Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) loans were for less than $150,000...The bipartisan bill holds the intention of automatically forgiving loans of less th…

You combined a source with a follow-up statement that appears nowhere in that article and is factually incorrect.

I don't know where you came up with your made up number of $22,000, but this isn't some big conspiracy, what is forgivable is directly viewable in the SBA's PPP Loan Forgiveness Application: https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/PPP%20Loan%2...

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#45

Post by nradov »

OminousWeapons wrote: post #22
TheBlight wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the federal government didn't shutter any businesses. You can thank the state governors, county officials and big city mayors for that.

My point is that the governors and mayors always had to weigh the economic damage they were doing to people whenever they made a shutdown decision, which resulted in erratic, complicated, and somewhat nonsensical shutdown orders. If the federal government had backstopped the economy properly and compensated any business or person directly affected by a shutdown, then the governors / mayors would have been able to tak…

Most governors and mayors didn't perform a rigorous cost benefit analysis before making shutdown decisions. Many of the lockdown orders were arbitrary and capricious, full of exemptions for politically favored groups. These were largely faith based policies without proper scientific backing from an evidence-based medicine perspective.

Free money from the federal government wouldn't have improved that situation. If state governors want to shut down businesses then state governments should be issuing relief payments.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#46

Post by dragonwriter »

enriquec wrote: post #40
purple_ferret wrote: post #29

Yet the rich get richer as Congress passes 'relief' plans that allow the wealthy to sneak massive chunks of cash directly into their pockets. Here's just one example: "According to the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB), about 85% of all the approved Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) loans were for less than $150,000...The bipartisan bill holds the intention of automatically forgiving loans of less th…

Class warfare is pointless. Businesses are shuttering. Sure, make accusations of fraud (do you have any proof?) - but those expenses can't be frivolous unless you want a huge issue with the IRS. Should relief be so strict and policed (its own cost) or should it be flexible for businesses that may have had to build outdoor accomodations?

> Class warfare is pointless.

The position of the capitalist class, built on successful class warfare first against the pre-capitalist aristocracy and then against the working classes within capitalism, proves this to be false.

As, for that matter, does the (arguably modest, but still very real) progress of the working class from the height of the system first described as “capitalism” in the late 19th and early 20th centuries through its replacement by the modern mixed economy from the mid-20th century to today as a result of class warfare by the working classes against the entrenched capitalist class.

Though “class warfare is pointless” is always what those defending class warfare by the capitalist class say when the working classes fight back.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#47

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

purple_ferret wrote: post #29

Yet the rich get richer as Congress passes 'relief' plans that allow the wealthy to sneak massive chunks of cash directly into their pockets. Here's just one example: "According to the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB), about 85% of all the approved Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) loans were for less than $150,000...The bipartisan bill holds the intention of automatically forgiving loans of less th…

It seems correct as a matter of policy to not earmark PPP loans directly to employee wages. We don't want to set up a scenario where a bunch of small businesses fail the instant the PPP ends because they haven't been paying the bills.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#48

Post by uoaei »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #37
HenryKissinger wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republicans refused to remove a liability shield for companies from the bill. That's a good reason to refuse to pass the bill.

Is it? Why is that so important that it's worth not aiding millions of people who are dropping into poverty?

I can't tell if this is a question posed in earnest, because I wouldn't expect a reaction like that to "corporations are designing and feeding Congress a liability shield so that they don't have to spend money protecting their workers."

The "aid" is a red herring if you are setting up those same people for dangerous situations with zero accountability from the people who are forcing them to put themselves in hazard's way.

It is myopic to think that a smaller stimulus bill (that would barely cover 1 month's expenses for the average American -- recall that it's been 8 months since the first stimulus) would be proposed for anything except to stave off the fervor of mass civil unrest for a short while longer.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#49

Post by est31 »

hypervisorxxx wrote: post #39

The other thing not being mentioned is alot of families who could never afford to buy homes can now buy homes. It has also allowed alot of people to move into nicer areas of NYC that could not afford to before. Alot of people's quality of life has increased, and alot of people who lost their income on paper also lost their requirement to pay rent and avoid being evicted or just moved into their parents homes. There a…

Do you have a link for real estate prices going down? From what I saw it was mainly the rents that decreased.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#50

Post by djsumdog »

OminousWeapons wrote: post #22
TheBlight wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the federal government didn't shutter any businesses. You can thank the state governors, county officials and big city mayors for that.

My point is that the governors and mayors always had to weigh the economic damage they were doing to people whenever they made a shutdown decision, which resulted in erratic, complicated, and somewhat nonsensical shutdown orders. If the federal government had backstopped the economy properly and compensated any business or person directly affected by a shutdown, then the governors / mayors would have been able to tak…

The way the US is structured makes this very difficult. We're not a country of countries like the United Kingdom, but the US is a country of States. Despite our federal solidification over the past century, states still have a lot of autonomy. Passing marijuana laws that contradict Federal law, is probably the most prevalent example of this.

The Federal government tried to create PPP programs, but look at what happened. Multi-million dollar franchises pulled in huge chunks while small restaurants got nothing. It's the 2008 bank bailouts all over again. It's like PS5/nvidia graphics cards scalping for businesses.

The corruption flows through every system, and the blame can be focuses on businesses with the means and people and legal staff to take advantage of the situation at the expense of every possible competitor.

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