Earlier quoted context omitted.
RAID is not a backup solution, its an uptime solution. I know. Doesn't change the fact there exist no sensible way to backup a decently sized pool in a home-user scenario. Now we might disagree on what is sensible. And some things might not need a backup.
Isn’t the backup solution to always get two of whatever you build? A primary raid backed up to a second pool?
ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
41–50 of 133 posts
Re: ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
#42We (rsync.net) have several PB of raidz3 deployed all over the world. We use conservatively sized (12-15 drive) vdevs and typically join 3 or 4 of those together to make a pool. I can see getting nervous about raidz2 (sort of analogous to "raid6") after a drive failure ... but losing 4 drives out of 12 in a single raidz3 failure cascade is extremely improbable . We all sleep quite well with this arrangement and have…
Re: ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
#43There's no planet on which I would trust a mirror with a 10TB + SATA drive. There's a reason the major storage vendors already have or are working on 3-disk parity for large NL-SAS/SATAS drives. Give me RAID-Z2 or RAID-Z3 with dRAID all day long (although I wouldn't deploy dRAID quite yet on production workloads).
Re: ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
#44I don't agree. And if one of your disks failed, and age was a factor… you’re going to be sweating bullets wondering if another will fail before your resilver completes. So every every single time you loose any drive in a mirror setup you risk all the data on all drives in the entire pool. I sure do hope you aren't on vacation and/or have to order a drive online. It all depends on your use case. For me, raidz3 wins ea…
Repeat after me: RAID is not a backup solution, its an uptime solution.
There is backup because a disks are unreliable and fail randomly. RAID is designed to solve this.
There is backup because you accidentally deleted a file. There is backup because ransomware encrypted your files. RAID with snapshots solve these (arguably better than most other backup systems).
There is backup because your main computers (phone) might break. NAS systems are a good place to backup these.
There is backup because your house burned down [or otherwise is destroyed]. This is the only one that RAID doesn't solve. (even then you can do offsite NAS)
What risks do you need to mitigate? Once you have that list you can decide what you mitigations to apply. RAID is a very useful piece of this and so saying RAID is not backup is not helpful and may harm people from making useful backups because they let the search for perfection delay them.
Re: ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
#45I don't agree. And if one of your disks failed, and age was a factor… you’re going to be sweating bullets wondering if another will fail before your resilver completes. So every every single time you loose any drive in a mirror setup you risk all the data on all drives in the entire pool. I sure do hope you aren't on vacation and/or have to order a drive online. It all depends on your use case. For me, raidz3 wins ea…
> Which is going to hurt since ZFS with buying everything up front is VASTLY more expensive than RAID where you can grow the array as needed - under the assumption that the storage needs grow slowly, which they typically do for home users. Not with mirrored vdevs, which you can expand pair by pair. I'm not arguing for the article, just pointing out your error. The article is very flawed and is bad advice. Not because…
But that advice might not be relevant for the use-cases discussed here, something to keep in mind.
I meant that home-users don't have to be limited by 8-drive setups.
Re: ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
#46We (rsync.net) have several PB of raidz3 deployed all over the world. We use conservatively sized (12-15 drive) vdevs and typically join 3 or 4 of those together to make a pool. I can see getting nervous about raidz2 (sort of analogous to "raid6") after a drive failure ... but losing 4 drives out of 12 in a single raidz3 failure cascade is extremely improbable . We all sleep quite well with this arrangement and have…
May I ask what your worst incident with ZFS was ever since 2012?
We have a fairly robust drive-proofing procedure prior to deployment - I think we still use 'badblocks' and really beat them up for 5-7 days. It's not enough to merely not fail - we have to see perfect returns on the SMART diagnostics and zero complaints from FreeBSD.
So we're starting with a known-good population of drives.
Then we monitor them very closely - again with both SMART and FreeBSD/ZFS system data and we are fairly aggressive about failing them out early if we see them start to misbehave.
So we don't see things like straight up drive failures - the bad ones have already been rejected and drives that misbehave are culled out.
The last time I got pulled in to make a judgement call (and got a little nervous) was (IIRC) we had a 15 drive vdev that had a drive failure and a candidate for early removal that had started to misbehave and the choice was made to yank them both because why do two big long resilvers ... and then during the subsequent resilver a third drive, while not failing, started to spit out errors. So the resilver completed and all was well but we had a potential third failure that could have died in the resilver and then we would be running with no protection.
But that's why I love raidz3 - even if that had happened, we would have needed to lose yet another drive to lose the vdev (and the entire pool).
I think the actionable recommendations here are to burn in your drives when you get them because we do, indeed, find rejects in most batches. Also, pick an error threshold that is low and be disciplined about sticking to it - don't let drives spin out SMART errors sporadically for months ...
EDIT: Here is another thought and this goes back to pre-ZFS days and old-style RAID, etc. In normal operations we're aggressively failing out drives that misbehave BUT if you're in a marginal situation you need to flip that logic around - especially if the pool is in-use during resilver/rebuild.
If you've lost 2 drives in a raidz3 (or, say, 1 drive in a RAID6) that remaining protection drive even if it is failing is like gold. If you fail it out, it's gone forever and has no relevance to the pool/array - but if you keep it, even as it's dying, you can either limp along OR you can even offline the pool/array and send that last drive to recovery or clone it or whatever ... the point is, when an array goes sideways every single bit of parity, no matter how poorly behaved, should be treated like gold.
Re: ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
#47I don't agree. And if one of your disks failed, and age was a factor… you’re going to be sweating bullets wondering if another will fail before your resilver completes. So every every single time you loose any drive in a mirror setup you risk all the data on all drives in the entire pool. I sure do hope you aren't on vacation and/or have to order a drive online. It all depends on your use case. For me, raidz3 wins ea…
It's $130 for an 8TB USB drive at Best Buy. If you don't mirror your backup, that's $16/TB cost, which is quite reasonable.
Re: ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
#48Every time I make this argument (whether regular RAID or ZFS), everyone pulls out their pitchforks and tells me about how they have run RAID 5 or 6 for years and never had a problem, plus "I can have two drives fail! You would lose your array if the wrong two drives fail!" But drive failure is much more likely during an operation like a resilver/resync, and I wonder if the majority of people espousing more risky RAID…
A resilver isnt more likely to kill an existing drive than a scrub. And the general advice is to do those semi regularly.
A blanket statement equating parity RAID to "more risky" is absurd and leads to people thinking they need a massive pool of mirrors just for their home files. ZFS has numerous options to prioritize different IO higher or lower (priority to resilvers or end user data).
Re: ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
#49With mirror vdevs if you lose the wrong 2 drives you lose everything. I can lose any 2 drives and be totally fine.
The probability of losing the wrong 2 drives at once is small, sure. But I would rather just not care about that probability. And I don't lose half my capacity, which for a home user (I don't have an unlimited budget!) matters a whole lot more than having the absolute best iops.
Re: ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ
#50We (rsync.net) have several PB of raidz3 deployed all over the world. We use conservatively sized (12-15 drive) vdevs and typically join 3 or 4 of those together to make a pool. I can see getting nervous about raidz2 (sort of analogous to "raid6") after a drive failure ... but losing 4 drives out of 12 in a single raidz3 failure cascade is extremely improbable . We all sleep quite well with this arrangement and have…