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Briefing note: US Deputy Secretary Of State meeting with Andrei Gromyko (1985)

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Re: Briefing note: US Deputy Secretary Of State meeting with Andrei Gromyko (1985)

#41
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

successful socialist country Does such a thing exist? What do you count as success? Just a few years earlier, and driven by the same socialist expansion strategy, another developing state turned socialist, Cambodia, with active help from Moscow. Is this what you have in mind as success? Wasn't Sankara a charismatic leader, and military man who came to power by a coup d'état ? Have you looked at the track record of mi…

Not to engage the broader question of whether socialism has any success stories, but I think one could more sympathetically read GP's "successful socialist country" in this context as "a country successfully converted to idealogical alignment with the Soviet Union"

That would be misleading, since it would distract attention away from the core reasons of such conflicts.

Aside, during the cold war, many leaders in developing countries played the US and the Soviet union off against each other, in order to get weapons etc. Erdogan in Turkey has been masterfully doing some variation of this for a while.

Re: Briefing note: US Deputy Secretary Of State meeting with Andrei Gromyko (1985)

#44
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simplest explanation is that people in the US gov't act and believe this kind of stuff. It aligns with every piece of leaked private correspondence from these people, as well as public statements at the time and now. If anything the last 4 years (mostly composed of "professional politicians" despite those at the top maybe being outsiders!) should be real "mask off" to the supposed genius and amazing tradecraft of…

It is striking how moronic and ill informed it is. When I think of all Ambassadors with grace and favour appointments it makes me grimace. The extraordinary testimony from Fiona Hill and Alex Vindman was at least reassuring that competent people were in government, even if they were being ignored.

Read the footnotes. It was an internally produced joke.

Re: Briefing note: US Deputy Secretary Of State meeting with Andrei Gromyko (1985)

#45
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Burkina Faso: important once, I cannot remember why Probably because at the time it was in danger of becoming a successful socialist country (under then-president Thomas Sankara), a state of affairs which obviously could not be permitted to continue (Sankara was duly assassinated in 1987 by his best friend who was much more compliant to the West): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara

successful socialist country Does such a thing exist? What do you count as success? Just a few years earlier, and driven by the same socialist expansion strategy, another developing state turned socialist, Cambodia, with active help from Moscow. Is this what you have in mind as success? Wasn't Sankara a charismatic leader, and military man who came to power by a coup d'état ? Have you looked at the track record of mi…

His wikipedia entry, which has no doubt had the usual battles over sources and bias, reports:

> His foreign policies were centred on anti-imperialism, with his government eschewing all foreign aid, pushing for odious debt reduction, nationalising all land and mineral wealth and averting the power and influence of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. His domestic policies were focused on preventing famine with agrarian self-sufficiency and land reform, prioritising education with a nationwide literacy campaign and promoting public health by vaccinating 2.5 million children against meningitis, yellow fever and measles

> Other components of his national agenda included planting over 10 million trees to combat the growing desertification of the Sahel, redistributing land from feudal landlords to peasants, suspending rural poll taxes and domestic rents and establishing a road and railway construction programme. On the local level, Sankara called on every village to build a medical dispensary and had over 350 communities build schools with their own labour. Moreover, he outlawed female genital mutilation, forced marriages and polygamy. He appointed women to high governmental positions and encouraged them to work outside the home and stay in school, even if pregnant. Sankara encouraged the prosecution of officials accused of corruption, counter-revolutionaries and "lazy workers" in Popular Revolutionary Tribunals. As an admirer of the Cuban Revolution, Sankara set up Cuban-style Committees for the Defense of the Revolution. Such programs led to criticism by Amnesty International and other non-governmental organizations for violations of human rights, including extrajudicial executions and arbitrary detentions of political opponents.

So large improvements in material conditions for an extremely poor country - but at the expense of political freedom.

> Have you looked at the track record of military coup d'états in history

As so often in history, those who come to power by violence leave it by violence; he was assassinated.

Re: Briefing note: US Deputy Secretary Of State meeting with Andrei Gromyko (1985)

#46
post #6
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...but it sure reads like one. > If Soviets dismantle all SS–20s, we are willing to airbrush out Gorbachev’s birthmark in US photographs

I wonder if that's some kind of cheeky remark internal between the SoS and the assistant, or if there was actually a real thought to do this. Ofc, cheap price, but seriously? Did they believe Gorbachev (spelling) was that vain? Was he? edit: also, "make the world safe for conventional warfare". Hmpf.

The whole thing is a spoof, dude. Read the footnotes.

Re: Briefing note: US Deputy Secretary Of State meeting with Andrei Gromyko (1985)

#47
post #45
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

successful socialist country Does such a thing exist? What do you count as success? Just a few years earlier, and driven by the same socialist expansion strategy, another developing state turned socialist, Cambodia, with active help from Moscow. Is this what you have in mind as success? Wasn't Sankara a charismatic leader, and military man who came to power by a coup d'état ? Have you looked at the track record of mi…

His wikipedia entry, which has no doubt had the usual battles over sources and bias, reports: > His foreign policies were centred on anti-imperialism, with his government eschewing all foreign aid, pushing for odious debt reduction, nationalising all land and mineral wealth and averting the power and influence of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. His domestic policies were focused on preventing famine w…

> So large improvements in material conditions for an extremely poor country - but at the expense of political freedom.

He had stated goals of improving material conditions for the poor. Every strongman promises that.

Without doing the research, I feel safe assuming none of those improvements actually happened.

But I'll be very happy to have any Burkinabes correct me!

Re: Briefing note: US Deputy Secretary Of State meeting with Andrei Gromyko (1985)

#48
post #45
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

successful socialist country Does such a thing exist? What do you count as success? Just a few years earlier, and driven by the same socialist expansion strategy, another developing state turned socialist, Cambodia, with active help from Moscow. Is this what you have in mind as success? Wasn't Sankara a charismatic leader, and military man who came to power by a coup d'état ? Have you looked at the track record of mi…

His wikipedia entry, which has no doubt had the usual battles over sources and bias, reports: > His foreign policies were centred on anti-imperialism, with his government eschewing all foreign aid, pushing for odious debt reduction, nationalising all land and mineral wealth and averting the power and influence of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. His domestic policies were focused on preventing famine w…

[deleted]

Re: Briefing note: US Deputy Secretary Of State meeting with Andrei Gromyko (1985)

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is striking how moronic and ill informed it is. When I think of all Ambassadors with grace and favour appointments it makes me grimace. The extraordinary testimony from Fiona Hill and Alex Vindman was at least reassuring that competent people were in government, even if they were being ignored.

An intelligent person can communicate important information through jest. In this ability is found charisma and charm - important characteristics for a diplomat. We wouldn't want our adversaries to think us dull.

I found it incredibly dull and far from charismatic.
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