The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling • Hacker News Board

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#41

Post by thomaslord » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #30

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reuse is better than recycling. True and I agree, however batteries have a limited lifetime, and at the end of said lifetime, lithium batteries become dangerous. Does anyone risk putting a secondhand battery in their phones for example? Might be okay for old Nokia style batteries, but the integrated ones, not a chance. Another problem is that with EV battery packs, they're not really viable to be disassembled and r…

> they're not really viable to be disassembled and repaired The fact that you can sell a dead EV battery pack for good money indicates that it is viable.

There are lots of 18650 "manufacturers" that actually just buy used batteries, re-wrap them, and sell them as new. I imagine that used Tesla battery packs may be used for this purpose pretty frequently. Unfortunately while this activity provides a great value for the players involved, the batteries are often passed off as new high-discharge cells to consumers who use them for vaporizers or flashlights. Using old spent cells for both of these use cases can be dangerous, but it's particularly worrying in vaporizers because the battery may fail catastrophically inches from the consumer's face.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#42

Post by Sharlin » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

d33lio wrote: post #25

Tesla seems to have used the same dirty trick used by oil companies to convince the public that plastics were largely "recyclable" by conflating economically productive (for Tesla) re-use of decommissioned batteries from Teslas and "recycling" of actual cells. I support the work of Elon Musk, obviously many here do not and call him a fraud, however I do take issue with how he uses this line to call the battery tech T…

Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brin…

> Fortum, a Finnish startup

Uhuh, Fortum[1] is not exactly a startup. It is a state-owned corporation with annual revenue of about 5 billion and one of the largest players in the Nordic energy sector.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortum

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#43

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #42

toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brin…

> Fortum, a Finnish startup Uhuh, Fortum[1] is not exactly a startup. It is a state-owned corporation with annual revenue of about 5 billion and one of the largest players in the Nordic energy sector. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortum

[deleted]

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#44

Post by epistasis » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:32 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #26

vlovich123 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's an accurate assessment. 1. Reduced dependency on oil = less money in oil = less money for a lot of countries that historically act quite poorly on the world stage. 2. 100% better for global warming than combustion cars. 3. Is mining lithium & disposing on lithium batteries incorrectly worse for the environment than oil manufacturing, production & transport? I don't know 100% but the massive oil sp…

Are lithium batteries ever used at grid-scale? I though the point was that the high energy-density was convenient for mobility, but poor on most other metrics, including manufacturing complexity, stability, and safety. Grid-scale wouldn't need to care so much about energy density versus stability and maintenance, in which case lead-acid, or compressed-gas storage should shine.

Currently in the Texas grid interconnection queue, there are more GW of lithium ion storage than there are of new gas generation (figure labeled Exhibit 2):

https://rmi.org/clean-energy-is-canceling-gas-plants/

Lithium ion is currently king here, it's easy and fast to deploy, with lots of off the shelf components, and cheap.

Texas' grid composition responds really quickly to economic changes, because anybody can connect and start making money. More highly regulated grids have been much slower to adapt to the new reality of cheap storage.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#45

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:33 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

d33lio wrote: post #25

Tesla seems to have used the same dirty trick used by oil companies to convince the public that plastics were largely "recyclable" by conflating economically productive (for Tesla) re-use of decommissioned batteries from Teslas and "recycling" of actual cells. I support the work of Elon Musk, obviously many here do not and call him a fraud, however I do take issue with how he uses this line to call the battery tech T…

Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brin…

>> Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop

SOME lithium batteries are recyclable, but ALL oldschool lead acid batteries are recyclable. For installations where weight/size are secondary concerns, old fashioned wet car batteries are more "green" than anything involving lithium.

A used lead-acid battery is not a liability. It is a useful and profitable product that can be easily turned into other useful products... today.

https://www.regionalrecycling.ca/auto-car-battery-recycling/

"Did you know you can make money recycling your old lead-acid batteries? Why not put a little extra cash in your pocket this season. *Earnings vary depending on weight. If you have 3 or more, please call (855) 701-7171 for a quote. It pays to recycle. "

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#46

Post by jasoncartwright » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

mfer wrote: post #14

bryanlarsen wrote: post #2

AFAICT, used Tesla battery packs fetch a decent price on ebay etc. They're more valuable for reuse than they are for recycling. Reuse is better than recycling.

Tesla isn't the only EV manufacturer. Others are ramping up production. Are their used batteries in such high demand? Then there is the practical question. You have a 5 year old EV that doesn't get enough miles for your use any longer. So, you have someone swap out the batteries for new ones. Do the people who swap out the batteries actually resell them for reuse or try to recycle them? If it's not easy or financiall…

When a battery deemed too inefficient for an EV then you can use it for static storage. Then you can recycle them when they are no good for that. BMW do this. https://insideevs.com/news/436066/bmw-group-ev-battery-recyc...

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#47

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #45

toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's previous CTO and Co-founder, JB Straubel (who spent 15 years at Tesla), left to found Redwood Materials [1] (which intends to scale up battery recycling processes). Fortum, a Finnish clean energy firm (correction provided by @Sharlin), has reached an 80% recycling rate as of 2019 [2]. It's always going to be cheaper to pour end of life cells into a remanufacturing process than to extract raw lithium from brin…

>> Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop SOME lithium batteries are recyclable, but ALL oldschool lead acid batteries are recyclable. For installations where weight/size are secondary concerns, old fashioned wet car batteries are more "green" than anything involving lithium. A used lead-acid battery is not a liability. It is a useful and profitable product that can be easily turned into other useful pr…

I don't know anyone using lead acid for new stationary storage or electrified transportation applications, although you are correct that lead acid are entirely recyclable.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#48

Post by hedora » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

h0l0cube wrote: post #21

1053r wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment is a pack of memes straight out of a propaganda machine. https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electri... Lithium is a mine once, use forever resource. It's an element. It will cost energy to recycle it, but that energy is increasingly sourced by clean energy sources. Let me cite the oil company, BP. https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/stat... Coal is in terminal…

> Lithium is a mine once, use forever resource. It's an element. It will cost energy to recycle it ... and human labor, and other chemicals. I'm not sure if you read the article, but it claims that recycling is still a somewhat tenuous economic proposition vs digging more out of the ground. This is especially true given the glut of lithium, while cobalt and other rare minerals are slowly being phased out of battery d…

The second company described in the article claims to recycle using nothing but catalysts, and simply grinds up the used batteries in a giant vat before transportation (rendering them inert, and easier to safely move).

It sounds like their main problem at this point is continuing to scale the business to meet supply (they are already the largest lithium recycler in the US), and that the challenges there are logical, not the underlying technology.

What human labor and chemicals are you referring to?

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#49

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #47

sandworm101 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Batteries are mostly recyclable currently, full stop SOME lithium batteries are recyclable, but ALL oldschool lead acid batteries are recyclable. For installations where weight/size are secondary concerns, old fashioned wet car batteries are more "green" than anything involving lithium. A used lead-acid battery is not a liability. It is a useful and profitable product that can be easily turned into other useful pr…

I don't know anyone using lead acid for new stationary storage or electrified transportation applications, although you are correct that lead acid are entirely recyclable.

I know lots of people. The bulk of residential off-grid solar installations use lead-acid battery banks. Most all RVs and boats use lead-acid. And virtually every new car/truck/motorcycle/ATV/snowmobile/jetski, including the hybrid cars, ships with a 12v wet lead-acid battery.

Re: The Race to Crack Lithium Ion Recycling

#50

Post by CaptArmchair » Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

Accujack wrote: post #27

djsumdog wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lithium is a mine once, use forever resource The article goes into why this is incredibly difficult. The vast majority of lithium batteries are in landfills, compressed between all our other garbage because maybe 2% of people on the planet properly dispose of e-waste. As far as clean energy, have you watched Planet of the Humans (2020)? I want to say, I despise Michael Moore emotional bullshit, but despite his infl…

You're ignoring current SMR technology in nuclear. Old style giant, expensive nuclear power plants are a non starter, but small modular reactors have a lot of promise, are zero emissions once running, and can be built using green energy in factories instead of constructed on site. Fission power plants are pretty much the only way to go fully "green"... renewables are great and have a big place in the future, but unle…

A point few proponents of fission power tend to mention is that Uranium supplies are also finite. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium

Unless there are major breakthroughs in nuclear technology which become commercially viable in the near future - that is, in this 21st century - nuclear power, as it stands, is running out of time, and it does so faster then most people assume.