Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#41

Post by Cookingboy » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 5:02 AM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #30

As a South Korean, I'm not sure covid has much to do with acceptance of "big government." Unlike most of the West, many Asians have lived under real dictators - some still do. We know what a dictatorship looks like, and we know how terrible your life can be when the government abandons its duty to protect people. To put it other way, "Your government shouldn't have enough power to fight an epidemic, because that's to…

I agree 100%. As an Asian American it is baffling how throughout years of propaganda, so many Americans firmly believe that personal freedom and democracy cannot co-exist with a competent and effective government that has all the tools and resources to do its job.

I think it comes from shallow interpretation of sayings such as "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I mean it's a catchy saying, but in reality it's just a result of terrible system engineering (in this case the government system) in many places.

It is totally possible to have a powerful government and have that government supervise. In the end there is a clear distinction between "big government" and "authoritarian dictatorship". If your big government devolves into individual dictatorship it just mean the single executive position likely had too much power to begin with.

In fact, similar to companies, it's very well possible to avoid a single dictator CEO even as your company grows large and end up with a large management hierarchy.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#42

Post by cpuguy83 » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 5:02 AM UTC

jariel wrote: post #13

jameslk wrote: post #9

I don't usually go off on the deep end with conspiracies, and I don't believe COVID-19 was intentionally spread, but I do think the needed response to fully control the spread of a virus creates perverse incentives for governments. Especially governments that would like to disrupt other countries which have cultures that don't like to be told what to do by their own government. COVID-19 didn't cause such trouble, but…

Yes - while we have to be careful of making sure not to support the anti-mask/'covid is fake' hysteria because it really is a time to act in unison ... there is a 100% chance governments around the world are going to use this time to do things they might not otherwise do and we have to be careful. And I mean good and bad governments, with good and bad ideas. It's hard being in government, you never get to do the thin…

Don't forget, we just went through the same thing back in 2001, as it relates to governmental power grabs, and it is pretty much why we are where we are today.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#43

Post by jameslk » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 5:42 AM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #41

yongjik wrote: post #30

As a South Korean, I'm not sure covid has much to do with acceptance of "big government." Unlike most of the West, many Asians have lived under real dictators - some still do. We know what a dictatorship looks like, and we know how terrible your life can be when the government abandons its duty to protect people. To put it other way, "Your government shouldn't have enough power to fight an epidemic, because that's to…

I agree 100%. As an Asian American it is baffling how throughout years of propaganda, so many Americans firmly believe that personal freedom and democracy cannot co-exist with a competent and effective government that has all the tools and resources to do its job. I think it comes from shallow interpretation of sayings such as "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I mean it's a catchy saying, but…

> I agree 100%. As an Asian American it is baffling how throughout years of propaganda, so many Americans firmly believe that personal freedom and democracy cannot co-exist with a competent and effective government that has all the tools and resources to do its job.

Propaganda? What?

> I think it comes from shallow interpretation of sayings such as "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I mean it's a catchy saying, but in reality it's just a result of terrible system engineering (in this case the government system) in many places.

I'm pretty sure it comes from the enlightenment era and especially the American Revolutionary War. American colonists were never been big fans of the powerful churches and monarchs of Europe they were trying to escape.

> If your big government devolves into individual dictatorship it just mean the single executive position likely had too much power to begin with.

Would you believe me if I told you this very thing was happening across the world in the 1930s and 1940s? And pretty close to home too? Maybe all it takes is enough people to forget history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_dictatorship

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#44

Post by WanderPanda » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 5:45 AM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #41

yongjik wrote: post #30

As a South Korean, I'm not sure covid has much to do with acceptance of "big government." Unlike most of the West, many Asians have lived under real dictators - some still do. We know what a dictatorship looks like, and we know how terrible your life can be when the government abandons its duty to protect people. To put it other way, "Your government shouldn't have enough power to fight an epidemic, because that's to…

I agree 100%. As an Asian American it is baffling how throughout years of propaganda, so many Americans firmly believe that personal freedom and democracy cannot co-exist with a competent and effective government that has all the tools and resources to do its job. I think it comes from shallow interpretation of sayings such as "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I mean it's a catchy saying, but…

> It is totally possible to have a powerful government and have that government supervise.

Are you sure that holds for periods > 100 years?

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#45

Post by strogonoff » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 5:59 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #37

>For decades, leaders like Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew and Malaysia's Mahathir Mohamad spoke proudly of Asia's tradition of small, nimble public administration. Yeah, but speaking of it was all they did. Singapore always had an entirely dominant state, they just figured out how to brand themselves correctly. State owned businesses became 'state-linked', regulatory frameworks are 'governmental disruption', and so on. The…

Singapore sounds like a well-branded dictatorship from what I keep hearing, but Japan and South Korea have limited governments that aren’t even allowed to enforce a full lockdown.

This is a commonly misreported point—earlier this year I saw The Guardian claim that the reason Japan, SK and China are better at dealing with COVID is because “police visibly enforced lockdown”; two of the three never did! Sure, in Korea at times non-essential domestic travel and public events were suppressed, certain venues (e.g. dance halls) were instructed to close and some cafes had to become takeout-only, but you can still move (even if strongly recommended to stay at home) and police presence was never visibly heightened.

Contrast with mainland China, where whole apartment buildings with people in them were quite non-figuratively sealed from outside.

What I hear from Koreans is that the police is a service, like a plumber: you have a problem, you call. They can’t enter your home, can’t invade your privacy and spot-check, etc. Law enforcement is so restricted by citizens’ own choice, as they had to deal with the opposite extreme recently enough that people still remember; they hold the government responsible and treasure the freedom they have.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#46

Post by trianglem » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:03 AM UTC

guram11 wrote: post #21

trianglem wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see it. What is the blueprint? Release a deadly virus? I think we have always known how bad that would be and there are international laws against it.

the international laws can't contain a virus outbreak, people still get murdered by guns when there's laws against using guns, the scale of the damage to economy and security to enemy nation has made this too lucrative to pass for any strategist

What I’m trying to say is that this isn’t a new strategy people have not considered before. Biological warfare is a well known term.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#47

Post by throw334543 » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:03 AM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #14

jameslk wrote: post #9

I don't usually go off on the deep end with conspiracies, and I don't believe COVID-19 was intentionally spread, but I do think the needed response to fully control the spread of a virus creates perverse incentives for governments. Especially governments that would like to disrupt other countries which have cultures that don't like to be told what to do by their own government. COVID-19 didn't cause such trouble, but…

Its interesting to me when Chinese govt told everyone in Jan/Feb they have the virus under control, much of the world relaxed, but its neighbours Korea/Vietnam/Taiwan/Japan all knew to ramp up response and not believe them.

The US and several other European countries banned all travelers from China during that time.

South Korea and Singapore didn’t ban Chinese travelers at all. And I think Japan and Vietnam only banned travelers from specific provinces.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#48

Post by whatusername » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:25 AM UTC

jniedrauer wrote: post #7

bpodgursky wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, the automobile, the industrial revolution, and a booming population through agriculture and medical improvements led to economic prosperity, despite a deadly plague. It's a pretty hard case to make that a disease which disproportionately killed health 20-30 year-olds led to mass prosperity. Given all the advancements which were happening in the early 20th century, I'm inclined to say that prosperity happened in S…

> It's a pretty hard case to make that a disease which disproportionately killed health 20-30 year-olds led to mass prosperity. That's exactly what happened during the black plague. It lead to the end of feudalism. A shortage of labor will absolutely boost the value of labor.

In modern terms - it might have caused a drop in total GDP - but it achieved growth in GDP per capita.

Not sure that's worth the cost of course.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#49

Post by yongjik » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 6:49 AM UTC

jameslk wrote: post #43

Cookingboy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree 100%. As an Asian American it is baffling how throughout years of propaganda, so many Americans firmly believe that personal freedom and democracy cannot co-exist with a competent and effective government that has all the tools and resources to do its job. I think it comes from shallow interpretation of sayings such as "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I mean it's a catchy saying, but…

> I agree 100%. As an Asian American it is baffling how throughout years of propaganda, so many Americans firmly believe that personal freedom and democracy cannot co-exist with a competent and effective government that has all the tools and resources to do its job. Propaganda? What? > I think it comes from shallow interpretation of sayings such as "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I mean it's…

Yet American colonists hanged witches all the same, and slavery persisted for much longer than in European kingdoms those colonists had fled from.

Seems like the correct lesson to draw is that the size or power of government doesn't necessarily tell you how much systematic misery and injustice you will find there.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#50

Post by baybal2 » Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 7:06 AM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #41

yongjik wrote: post #30

As a South Korean, I'm not sure covid has much to do with acceptance of "big government." Unlike most of the West, many Asians have lived under real dictators - some still do. We know what a dictatorship looks like, and we know how terrible your life can be when the government abandons its duty to protect people. To put it other way, "Your government shouldn't have enough power to fight an epidemic, because that's to…

I agree 100%. As an Asian American it is baffling how throughout years of propaganda, so many Americans firmly believe that personal freedom and democracy cannot co-exist with a competent and effective government that has all the tools and resources to do its job. I think it comes from shallow interpretation of sayings such as "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I mean it's a catchy saying, but…

> If your big government devolves into individual dictatorship it just mean the single executive position likely had too much power to begin with.

And it is.

There were nobody to put brakes on Obama's "point, and click" signature strikes, and him signing on, for all intents, and reasons, an extrajudicial assasination orders of US citizens.