Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

huffingtonpost.in

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 80 posts

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#41

Post by smdz »

jaikant77 wrote: post #19
moh_maya wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, for railways ticket bookings, yes; not banned but illegal. However, it's common knowledge that they exist and are used.

India has a strong legal framework and unfortunately very poor implementation (the arrest is an example of poor implementation/bullying by the state). When you say illegal, you should be able to specify the law under which it is illegal. Broadly classifying anything not convenient to the state as illegal does not stand ground, AFAIK there is no law which prohibits automation of forms on any website?

There is a difference between "guilty until proven innocent" and "innocent until proven guilty". In India, the former is how the law-enforcement works for most people while the justice system says the latter. Most people entangled in the slow legal system just want to get out of it even if it means injustice towards themselves. And the laws are so convoluted and in this case he has a behemoth monopoly to fight against.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#42

Post by dmurray »

jaikant77 wrote: post #11
ch_123 wrote: post #3

The headline has been editorialized. While I don't agree with what the authorities did here, and believe the developer was acting in good faith, the developer created an app for buying railway tickets which charged a small fee for the tickets - the issue was that he was arrested for making money off ticket sales, as opposed to "automating forms on a website"

Yes. thats because technically thats what he seems to have done. Since tatkal tickets are limited in number, by prefilling and automating the forms he effectively helps his clients jump the queue. This is a clear hack, but I find it irrational to arrest a person because the website is suboptimal and cannot prevent his hack from running. This similar to what Github did when they pulled down youtube-dl, bully your way…

Github wasn't bullying anyone in the youtube-dl saga. Their crime was that they didn't stand up for their user.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#43

Post by sokoloff »

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #37
sokoloff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so why not have this functionality in the first party website in the first place? This functionality being to work-around the intended first-come, first-serve allocation of these last minute tickets? It sounds like the overall system isn’t in a healthy, modern state, but I don’t think the essential feature this guy’s tool provided is desired by the original website.

why do you have a lottery system? can you buy an airline ticket at the airport 2 minutes before boarding? yes. does the system accurately track unbooked seats with 100% accuracy? yes. can you "automate" airline ticket booking with an almost 1 click operation? yes. can the millions of airline websites and agents manage simultaneous ticket booking of a single seat so that at no time are two people charged for the same…

I suspect if you let these tickets become market-priced like airline seats, you wouldn’t have these problems either.

I think the core issue is that the rail operator (gov) for whatever reason wants these last-minute tickets to be available at an artificially low ticket price.

That’s not what airlines are trying to do. Trying to build a system that works with the natural effects of markets is much easier than creating a system that works against market forces.

Look at the Ticketmaster experience for popular concerts and sports tickets. Waiting rooms and bugs and software workarounds/hacks, all because it’s a raffle for tickets being sold below what the free market price would be.

This does not appear to be a primarily technical problem. If these tickets sell out in 10 minutes, creating a better technical solution to let them sell out in 2 minutes isn’t actually improving anything meaningful.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#44

Post by kranner »

smdz wrote: post #31
moh_maya wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. He circumvented rate-limiters that ensured that you couldn't game the booking system. The regulations very clearly prohibit this to ensure fair access. Now, one can absolutely argue about whether this form of rate limiting is the right approach, but to circumvent something that is clearly prohibited & charge money to do that is illegal. This does not mean that I think the current system is perfect OR that there…

This is a case of 'BUREAUCRATS STIFLING INNOVATION' and this is how it often looks like. He could have gone through legal channels to approve his app and would not be able to find approvals even after being able to afford those financially. Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or get…

> Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or gets logged out - where is Fair Access?

Inept as it is, the official website still intends to provides fair access. Just because it is buggy does not make it OK to circumvent it, especially when such circumvention only reduces access for users who are not using this developer's software.

I say this as someone who has used the IRCTC website to book tickets. Tatkal tickets especially are nightmarishly hard to book.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#45

Post by ch_123 »

jkoudys wrote: post #34
ch_123 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're attacking a strawman here. The issue was that he was making a profit by reselling tickets, not by automating filling forms in a website. The mechanism is not particularly relevant. By analogy, it is legal to park my car in my own garden, but not legal to park it in my neighbour's garden. If I were to do that, I might expect to be punished for "parking my car".

You start by accusing him of using a strawman, then using an analogy which doesn't even remotely apply. It's closer to your neighbour selling you the rights to park in their garden, then you selling those rights to someone else. Far from a criminal, arrestable offence, so their point on the broad-brush of being "illegal" stands. Even my closer analogy is still pretty far off and it's much more innocent. Maybe closer…

> It's closer to your neighbour selling you the rights to park in their garden, then you selling those rights to someone else. Far from a criminal, arrestable offence, so their point on the broad-brush of being "illegal" stands.

That's a good analogy, but perhaps not for the reason you think. In many situations where you acquire property rights from an owner, there are clauses which restrict or limit sub-leasing to a third party, or using the land for commercial gain. If I was doing what you are describing, I would want to read the lease or agreement very carefully to see whether I am allowed to do that.

Again, I think the developer acted in good faith, but it seems a bit naive to resell something for profit (no matter how small) without seeking legal advice, or at very least reading the T&Cs. We also cannot accuse the government of setting arbitrary restrictions - ticket touting is a problem, even if the government probably could have done more to make it easier for people to buy tickets legitimately.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#46

Post by inapis »

smdz wrote: post #31
moh_maya wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. He circumvented rate-limiters that ensured that you couldn't game the booking system. The regulations very clearly prohibit this to ensure fair access. Now, one can absolutely argue about whether this form of rate limiting is the right approach, but to circumvent something that is clearly prohibited & charge money to do that is illegal. This does not mean that I think the current system is perfect OR that there…

This is a case of 'BUREAUCRATS STIFLING INNOVATION' and this is how it often looks like. He could have gone through legal channels to approve his app and would not be able to find approvals even after being able to afford those financially. Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or get…

> Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or gets logged out - where is Fair Access? If Railways gave 10 Rs for each such failure, they will go bankrupt within 2 hours. First-come-first-serve does not mean fair access when they can't fix their technical problems.

I am not sure if you know the history of IRCTC and why it is slow (at times. Things have vastly improved in the last decade). People have asked this many a times and their explanation does make some sense, that if IRCTC is super fast and efficient, then people with cash to spare/with computers and good internet access will hog all the tickets, denying people in rural areas a fair opportunity to purchase tickets. That is still probably true in 2020, because a good chunk of Indians in rural areas either do not have good internet connectivity, lack digital means of payment or are simply flummoxed by the online process.

From your perspective, IRCTC is not fair access because the servers slow down but from the govt perspective, fair access is not limited to only IRCTC users. There might be an argument that railways has a low capacity overall and that there is a long way to go for efficiency improvements etc but given my experience over last 12 years, the experience has improved drastically. Wait times have gone down considerably on a lot of trains, you no longer have to plan your travel 6 months in advance, you can buy tatkal tickets without paying scalpers etc. In 2018 I could even book tickets (from home) on a train which had already departed from its source station (my departure point was halfway between the origin and destination) and people around me did not believe that this was possible.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#47

Post by 2Gkashmiri »

sokoloff wrote: post #43
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you have a lottery system? can you buy an airline ticket at the airport 2 minutes before boarding? yes. does the system accurately track unbooked seats with 100% accuracy? yes. can you "automate" airline ticket booking with an almost 1 click operation? yes. can the millions of airline websites and agents manage simultaneous ticket booking of a single seat so that at no time are two people charged for the same…

I suspect if you let these tickets become market-priced like airline seats, you wouldn’t have these problems either. I think the core issue is that the rail operator (gov) for whatever reason wants these last-minute tickets to be available at an artificially low ticket price. That’s not what airlines are trying to do. Trying to build a system that works with the natural effects of markets is much easier than creating…

wouldnt keeping a fixed price solve the issue?

>This does not appear to be a primarily technical problem. If these tickets sell out in 10 minutes, creating a better technical solution to let them sell out in 2 minutes isn’t actually improving anything meaningful.

i am sorry i don't understand how is forcing users to buy those tickets in 10 minutes instead of efficient 2 minutes helping anybody?

its not like i can just buy PNRs like i can do on airlines to inflate the demand. i have to buy a ticket now, if its available, i pay and thats it. why do you need complications. its not like i could sell my ticket or transfer or whatever.

where does ticketmaster come in? that is a for profit system designed to charge people to buy more tickets for their own commissions.

why is irctc wanting to be like that?

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#48

Post by C1sc0cat »

inapis wrote: post #46
smdz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a case of 'BUREAUCRATS STIFLING INNOVATION' and this is how it often looks like. He could have gone through legal channels to approve his app and would not be able to find approvals even after being able to afford those financially. Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or get…

> Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or gets logged out - where is Fair Access? If Railways gave 10 Rs for each such failure, they will go bankrupt within 2 hours. First-come-first-serve does not mean fair access when they can't fix their technical problems. I am not sure if you kn…

How do you mean "hog" all the tickets just make them non transferable if they are already not.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#50

Post by C1sc0cat »

baybal2 wrote: post #18
moh_maya wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think This is a very naïve, unfair take on one of the world's most sophisticated, complex, real-time booking systems that is unparalleled in what it enables. [1,2] The front end definitely can be much much better; but the issue is very simply there are not enough tickets to match the demand. "From 29 tickets booked in a day in 2002, it has reached to 13 Lakh tickets a day as of now. It is reported that the IRCTC sy…

> Fortran on a Digital OpenVMS Fortran on a Digital OpenVMS.... in 2020

Just WOW! and I say that as some one who developed billing systems in Fortran.
Post reply on HN