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A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

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Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#41

Post by hnracer »

ashleyn wrote: post #14
umvi wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree there's a lot to be done to reduce the number of prisoners. But at the end of the day, what do you do about members of society who greatly harm others? (murder, rape, etc)? I can't think of any effective solutions which aren't prison, death penalty, or prison-disguised-as-something-else (like a hospital). Maybe exile? What's your philosophy in those cases?

The way I see this is, prison should not be taken lightly. The cavalier attitude of simply shoving addicts into prison glosses over the gravity of using this option. There are appropriate use cases for prison, and violence in prison will be inevitable. The very least we can do is take that more seriously, and stop shoving addicts into the same place as violent murderers.

> stop shoving addicts into the same place as violent murderers.

Isn't this already partly achieved by the delineation between low security & high security prisons, as well as delineations within the same prison complex (general population vs SHU)?

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#42

Post by avs733 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #31
epistasis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering what set people off on downvoting your comment, as it's a commonly held view for anybody who has spent more than a small amount of time looking into our justice system, though perhaps shocking to those who have not examined the prison system. Perhaps the contrast between "not a conscious choice" and "intentionally racist"?

Probably because in people's experience "a large portion of the US electorate sees drug users and criminals as inherently violent" is untrue. Heck even the most hard line anti-drug politicians tend to stop short of calling drug users "inherently violent". The most extreme mainstream opinions tend to be things along the lines of "stop providing narcan and the problem will solve itself".

I didn't say people say 'inherently violent' I said that is the narrative that is created and used implicitly not explicitly. It's the same as 'forced busing' as code...

And you are wrong about the 'extreme' mainstream opinion. From making certain drugs illegal on forward...it is discussed, reported, and legislated in racist ways.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5121004/ [1] https://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war ...I can really keep going here...

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#43

Post by hnracer »

avs733 wrote: post #9
celim307 wrote: post #3

Is it common to house non-violent offenders with ones convicted of violent crimes?

a large portion of the US electorate sees drug users and criminals as inherently violent. It isn't a fact or a conscious choice but rather a belief built from the constant narrative of tough on crime. It is also fundamentally, systematically, and intentionally racist.

Why is it intentionally racist to hold the perception that drug users and criminals are inherently violent?

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#44

Post by Broken_Hippo »

sevencolors wrote: post #37

I'm glad we're starting to move the conversation and American laws towards decriminalizing drugs. With Oregon leading the way last week. Focusing on helping addiction not ignoring it and shaming people will go a long way to breaking the cycle

It isn't enough. Legalisation needs to happen, even for things I wouldn't touch.

It isn't just about breaking a cycle, though not shaming addiction is helpful. It isn't just addicts that do drugs: I've met folks that do cocaine twice a year, for example. Few folks are addicted to LSD, and most folks only take MDMA occasionally. There is more than one way to take heroin, and folks do use occasionally. All drugs I wouldn't take are safer if folks know they are getting, strength and purity are verified as much as possible.

Legalisation takes some strength away from cartels, which hopefully means less human trafficking.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#45

Post by bigbubba »

somebodythere wrote: post #40
99_00 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and our focus should be on correcting the societal failures that lead to people ending up there. Because prisons aren't going to away. But we can all agree that we should help people who need it.

The societal failings like prisons existing in the first place? The police and courts who supply a steady stream of fodder to the prison-industrial complex? The legislators who create innumerable and overbroad laws to give the above carte blanche to abuse vulnerable groups? By all means, let us get rid of all of these things.

Where would you put a rapist, if not in a prison?

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#46

Post by sleavey »

Emphere wrote: post #19
sleavey wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the fact that smoking remains legal indoors in prisons. I get that there would be extra stress from withdrawal for new inmates, but it might let them quit a nasty, expensive habit while they're in. Plus, it's bad for the health of everyone in there, whether they're smoking or not, including the guards; they have no choice in being able to get away from smokers like you would do on the outside.

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Your solution to inmates having crappy lives is to impose even more arbitrary restrictions on them? This would make sense only if they could voluntarily go outside for a smoke whenever they want or go to a special smoking room or whatever.

> Your solution to inmates having crappy lives is to impose even more arbitrary restrictions on them?

What about the other prisoners and guards who don't smoke having smoke imposed on their lungs? Isn't that ridiculous? I'm suggesting we make this fairer, by not forcing inmates to breathe poisonous fumes in addition to serving their sentences. What makes prisons special compared to every other indoor public space (in most western countries) where it is banned - why are they exempt?

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#47

Post by thisisnico »

99_00 wrote: post #10
tall wrote: post #2

This is a bleak reminder that prisons are a crime against humanity, no deserves to live in constant fear for their own survival. Not only that but prisoners are a very vulnerable population often exploited for labor, medical experiments and general abuse.

True, and our focus should be on correcting the societal failures that lead to people ending up there. Because prisons aren't going to away. But we can all agree that we should help people who need it.

As a Canadian, 10 YEARS for a non-violent property crime??? What.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#48

Post by hnracer »

somebodythere wrote: post #40
99_00 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and our focus should be on correcting the societal failures that lead to people ending up there. Because prisons aren't going to away. But we can all agree that we should help people who need it.

The societal failings like prisons existing in the first place? The police and courts who supply a steady stream of fodder to the prison-industrial complex? The legislators who create innumerable and overbroad laws to give the above carte blanche to abuse vulnerable groups? By all means, let us get rid of all of these things.

> The societal failings like prisons existing in the first place?

Prisons existing is not a societal failure. You can't have a society with 330 million people and not have at least 1 murderer who is relentlessly violent, who needs to be physically confined to protect everyone around them. As soon as you have 1 individual like that (which is almost guaranteed by the law of large numbers irrespective of how good that society is), you've already agreed that some kind of prison (whether or not you label it as such) is necessary.

Every large country has some kind of supermax prison, including Scandinavian countries, because it's a simple reality that individuals like the above exist in small numbers.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#49

Post by [deleted] »

umvi wrote: post #12
tall wrote: post #2

This is a bleak reminder that prisons are a crime against humanity, no deserves to live in constant fear for their own survival. Not only that but prisoners are a very vulnerable population often exploited for labor, medical experiments and general abuse.

I agree there's a lot to be done to reduce the number of prisoners. But at the end of the day, what do you do about members of society who greatly harm others? (murder, rape, etc)? I can't think of any effective solutions which aren't prison, death penalty, or prison-disguised-as-something-else (like a hospital). Maybe exile? What's your philosophy in those cases?

[deleted]

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#50

Post by bigbubba »

Emphere wrote: post #19
sleavey wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the fact that smoking remains legal indoors in prisons. I get that there would be extra stress from withdrawal for new inmates, but it might let them quit a nasty, expensive habit while they're in. Plus, it's bad for the health of everyone in there, whether they're smoking or not, including the guards; they have no choice in being able to get away from smokers like you would do on the outside.

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Your solution to inmates having crappy lives is to impose even more arbitrary restrictions on them? This would make sense only if they could voluntarily go outside for a smoke whenever they want or go to a special smoking room or whatever.

The right of nonsmokers to not breath second hand smoke has moral precedence over the right of smokers to smoke.
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