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Not Everyone has to go to College

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Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#41

Post by patrickgzill »

I have a client, older guy, with 3 children - 2 older boys, youngest, a daughter is about 19 yo.

The 2 older boys both have degrees, the youngest dropped out despite good grades (chosen degree: English major) saying it wasn't what she wanted to do - and got a job at Panera Bread, where she is rather quickly moving from cashier to training.

The old guy is really stressed about it, to him and his generation, if you don't have a degree, you have no real future.

Given that the daughter is doing well, has essentially zero debt, is not addicted to anything, and enjoying her job and getting promoted--in contrast to many who are having trouble landing any kind of job; well, I am trying to nicely tell him not to worry so much.

Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#42

Post by CodeMage »

adrianN wrote: post #11
CodeMage wrote: post #3

I agree with you on a lot of points, especially the following two: 1. College doesn't guarantee success. 2. Not everyone should go to college. But here's where we diverge: I believe we'll never get to the point where everyone will "succeed". We all want our kids to succeed, but our definition of success is usually based on things like "have a high-paying job", "be important", "be powerful" or "be famous". This is bec…

While I agree that striving for happiness is a totally acceptable goal in live, I think it's a bit egoistic. I would not teach my children to seek power or riches, but to work to "better themselves and the rest of humanity". If the can't leave their own footprints, they can at least try to help others in doing that. I want humans to achieve cool things -- build AIs, end disease and death, and settle on other planets.…

Although your sentiment is laudable, you seem to confuse goals and values. A goal is something to achieve, while values are what you teach your children to shape their struggle to achieve their goals.

Like I said in my comment, I don't mean to imply we shouldn't teach our kids to strive for great achievements. There's nothing to say they can't be happy striving to "better themselves and the rest of humanity"; nor is there anything to say that seeking happiness precludes bettering yourself and others.

Bear in mind that I'm talking about happiness, rather than gratification. I'm not proposing to teach our kids to be hedonists. Just because I'm not content or satisfied all the time, doesn't mean I'm not happy. To quote Frank Herbert's "Children of Dune":

"Tell me, Namri, are you content?"

"No." The words came out flat, spontaneous rejection.

"Then do you blaspheme?"

"Of course not!"

"But you aren't contented. You see, Gurney? Namri proves it to us. Every question, every problem doesn't have a single correct answer."

Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#43

Post by pnathan »

Not everyone has to go to college.

Everyone should have a trade, though. And there needs to be some framing of background - call it 'education' - to be able to have a cultural awareness and to also ably manage practicing ones trade.

Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#44

Post by dexterchief »

I have been seeing quite a few posts in this vein on HN and they really disturb me. While I think its clear to everyone that there are problems with the education system, I have a real problem with encouraging people to drop out of, or not attend higher education. Questioning the value of your education is one of the many privileges an education affords you.

The experience we have as IT people is really deeply skewed. The IT industry really barely existed ~25 years ago. Saying that education doesn't matter because a handful of high-school/college/university dropouts made it big riding the coattails of an enormous technological change is really misguided. We get away without credentials here and there simply because so much of this stuff is so new. This is a quirk of this particular moment in time. It won't last. Once that change settles down, degrees will be required for just about every IT job. Hell, that's getting to be the case already.

This statistic about 17 million Americans having degrees in jobs that don't require them has appeared a few times in various articles. It's said as though the people went to school _intending_ to be an overqualified waiter. If that were the case, I would agree that is a terrible waste. With years of aggressive outsourcing, the effective destruction of the manufacturing sector behind us, and a recession all around us, can we really accept that statistic just as it is offered to us?

If student loans have just surpassed credit card debt I agree that is a problem. But if education is to expensive then do something about the cost of education. Don't go telling people to drop out and have their world view shaped by something as meagre as a job or a bit of travel. The only way to develop your brain is to have someone push you to think. Hard. Yes there are examples of this happening outside school but not as many as you think.

Really I think uneducated people are social equivalent of infected PC's on a network; they make things bad for everyone. More education, not less is crucial if we are going to make any progress as a society.

Just my two cents.

Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#45

Post by flooser »

This post is going to be downvoted. This is not a personal attack.

The basic question is, why the hell don't you learn for the sake of learning. I did that. Promise. I have an inability to study for grades. So fine, I am doing ok. I took classes, I really enjoyed them (though I struggled a lot), and I learnt a lot. I love school - its the best way to learn things in a structured way, and meet really crazy smart people doing that.

I'll be honest though, I went to pretty selective school - it took me a while to get in (but I did) and it was really an awesome experience. M.I.T. was an especially great experience.

But of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and so am I.

Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#46

Post by flooser »

TheRevoltingX wrote: post #33
dedward wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on what your feelings are on your own children's educations. Will you advise them to drop out of highschool and start working? Are you expecting them to go to university?

Well, I'd have to admit that not every kid excels at something, or is special, including my own. That decision seems like it would need to happen as the child is growing up. If they exhibit signs of being fast learners where the education system is actually slowing them down. Then yes, I'd probably advise them not to go. Or if they want to go, to try their best to get at a top-tier school (i.e. MIT.) Certainly things…

eg. instead of i.e., and yes, I did go to M.I.T.

Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#47

Post by sebkomianos »

dexterchief wrote: post #44

I have been seeing quite a few posts in this vein on HN and they really disturb me. While I think its clear to everyone that there are problems with the education system, I have a real problem with encouraging people to drop out of, or not attend higher education. Questioning the value of your education is one of the many privileges an education affords you. The experience we have as IT people is really deeply skewed…

> Really I think uneducated people are social equivalent of infected PC's on a network; they make things bad for everyone. More education, not less is crucial if we are going to make any progress as a society.

But the question is, do we get an education from colleges that we wouldn't be able to get without them?

Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#48

Post by supervillain »

There's an essay called "College Uneducation" by Jorge Bocobo, which tackles about current social problems involving learning. He specified each problems and called it Book-worship, Misguided Zeal, Professional Philistinism, etc. If you want to learn more about the current social problems of learning, try reading his views.

Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#49

Post by smcj »

The problem is that in the united states access to colleges and universities has shifted from those who are gifted to those who can pay it.

How long can a society afford it to let gifted people clean desks and wash cars instead of giving them the education they deserve to create benefits for the society?

Every educational system which expects people to pay tuitions gives a up long-term benefits for a short-term monetary gain.

Additionally it teaches young people that it is OK to have debts. It is not. Never. Don't buy what you can't pay.

Re: Not Everyone has to go to College

#50

Post by smcj »

il wrote: post #39
rdtsc wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, I believe that we should define "success" differently for our kids. Interestingly coming from another country to US I had a little bit of a different understanding of "success". It meant something like a general "good luck", or "happiness". Here (in US) it seems to a code word for "lots of money" and "power over people". One wouldn't refer to someone who decides to live in a remote hut in the woods, fish…

>One wouldn't refer to someone who decides to live in a remote hut in the woods, fishing and hunting but having 0 income and not managing anyone as "successful". Would you refer to someone like that as successful? I think some, unspoken, element of the definition of success is "more successful than others" . This is usually related to accomplishing some difficult task or solving a difficult problem others have failed…

> Would you refer to someone like that as successful?

If that person does what it always wanted to do, this person is obviously successful.

Note to myself: The American definition of "success" is much more f*cked up than expected. No wonder that they have these problems recently...

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