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A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

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41–50 of 112 posts

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#41
post #34

The crux of the argument here seems to be that the author doesn't want to pay 650euros a month in child support for his kid. I have very little sympathy. The important person in all of this is the child, not him. His life is going to suck and he'll have no money. That's unfortunate but if the choice is between his life being rubbish and the child's life being rubbish it's a bit of a no-brainer.

650 a month is neccessary for a life not to be rubbish? Don't forget he's paying half the existing mortgage and needs to find a new place to live and support himself. It alludes to those costs adding up to be greater than the 1600 per month he makes...

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#42
post #11

It happens a lot in Spain as well. I met many people (always men) who had to deal with similar situations. Unfortunately in some countries, forming a family can really go south for the guys if the woman decides so.

Men's weak standing in child custody cases is tied to the societal norms and practices that make men take less interest in their own children overall.

Ironically, this widespread disinterest in child care is what have allowed women to get these rights in the first place, because the late 1800's was certainly not a period of feminist dominion.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#44
post #20

No fault divorce needs to go away when there are children involved. That is basically the end of it. Marriage is ultimately about creating family. You can't undo your marriage once you have a child anymore than you can undo your parentage or undo your relationship with a cousin. If mom and dad want to screw around with other people, their rights to do so obviously should not be restricted, but there should be no out…

Any studies that can support your claims that the mental health crisis, lack of grit etc. are due to divorce?

I would be interested to see his sources too.

This article has references to many studies (I haven't looked into them all yet). https://gillespieshields.com/40-facts-two-parent-families/

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#45
post #8
post #3

I doubt this is limited to Italy. It has become a meme that a guy is likely to suffer more during a separation if she is motivated and gets herself a good lawyer. If she insists to get the kids, she will. If she doesnt want him to see them very often, she will get her will. I am sure there are examples where it was the other way around. No question. However, the way how the mother is treated as more of a parent then…

The mother being treated/expected to be more of a parent does not start at divorce. That's simply the continuation of a societal expectation that women will do the 'mothering.' Because that social expectation is there, it is far more often true that in a hetro marriage the wife will be the one who gives up their career path to take care of a child. Thus the court systems has standardized on an expectation that the mo…

> That's simply the continuation of a societal expectation that women will do the 'mothering.'

You are ignoring biological reality. The reason why this happens in 'hetero' couples is that the woman has an obvious physical relationship with the child. This doesn't happen in gay male couples because neither of the fathers can have this relationship. In lesbian couples, it's common for the non-bio mother to not only feel alienated, and even to do less childcare than the biological one (https://www.thespermbankofca.org/sites/default/files/1998_Ch...). Lesbian adoptive couples are more likely to share childcare equally, just like gay male ones of any kind, or heterosexual adoptive families.

My wife and I used to be really into this idea of parental equality in all things until we had a baby biologically. Now I obviously love my daughter, but there are some things only a mother can do, like nurse her, and this forms a special bond between mother and child. The fact of the matter is that men have to work harder to get that close of a relationship with their child that the mother is predisposed to. However, even then, the most devoted father would likely still see their child want to nurse when they get hurt or feel scared, until the child reaches 2-3 years of age. This is normal. Nursing is meant to do this, and although it's a physical act, it has real emotional consequence in both mother and child. My heart breaks hearing my daughter cry, but my nipples do not leak milk. It's not even that I couldn't calm her when she's mad, but the fact is that it would take significantly longer. Meanwhile, the child will be screaming and upset, and I should be willing to do this in the name of equality? On the other hand, handing her off to nurse with mom calms her instantly, as nature dictates.

To me it seems cruel to force my view of equality on the child by forcing them to remain terrified, frightened, anxious, and sad all because I want to feel as important as their mother, even while mom is right there. Is this unequal? Certainly. But it is the only humane decision in our opinions.

That is not to say we should think less of paternal love or the paternal relationship (especially since research shows that dads play a very important role in socializing their children into larger society), but rather that we should not see the inequality between mom and dad especially with young children and attribute it to some nefarious social force, instead of millenia of biological reality.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#46
I wonder why it's flagged, the article is clearly trying the best to be reasonable impartial.

It's also well known that sometimes, in some countries maybe more then others, decisions wrt. children are biased toward mother's.

I have seen one such case in my environment myself.

I belive it is important that such Curt decisions are based on the combination of the situation both parents are in and guidelines in a impartial non gender specific way.

Through just to be clear while I have seen one such case myself I also have seen many cases with very reasonable decisions (in Germany).

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#47
post #40
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if that's both? What if it's neither? What if is the higher earner that sacrificed an even higher position - do you make the lower earner pay them? There are other factors involved too.

> What if that's both? What if it's neither? Then the court doesn't need to show a particular bias towards either party on this subject . As you have very astutely pointed out, there exist other circumstances which may compel a court to apply a bias one way or another. That's what courts are for. > What if is the higher earner that sacrificed an even higher position - do you make the lower earner pay them? If a decad…

> If a decade of childcare materially and demonstrably damaged their future career, they should take that into account. If not, no.

They are a parent by their own actions, why should they be moated from the duty of parenting in the case of a divorce?

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#48
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because that social expectation is there [...] The court should temper society's vices not empower them.

What does that look like in this situation? I agree, in theory, but _how_ is it applied to a divorce? How does it apply to the financial power imbalance of 'breadwinner' and 'active parent?' I'm also curious, what is the 'vice' in this statement?

The "vice" is society's expectations for women. The court can empower that vice by giving women preferential custodial rights. Or it can temper that vice by analyzing the attributes of a specific relationship and recognizing custodial rights accordingly.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#49

I wonder why it's flagged, the article is clearly trying the best to be reasonable impartial. It's also well known that sometimes, in some countries maybe more then others, decisions wrt. children are biased toward mother's. I have seen one such case in my environment myself. I belive it is important that such Curt decisions are based on the combination of the situation both parents are in and guidelines in a imparti…

Did you read that comic at the start and get the impression the judge ruling in favour of the mother to get money from a webdeveloper was a impartial account of events?

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#50
post #28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the 'fix,' if there is one, likely needs to start with the social pressures on women to give up their lives to parent, with more equitable parenting expectations overall, and let that bubble up to the court baselines.

No, the courts should impose their will on society in situations where equality needs to be enforced. Just imagine if the process you're describing had been used to stop segregation in the United States.

but the courts enforcing desegregation did work at the societal pressure level.

What I'm saying is that denying the fact that a partner gave up career growth to parent does not change that they did, and does not stop the pressure upon women to do so. It should not be tied to gender, it should be tied to who gave up paying work to do the child rearing labor.

Spousal and child support _are_ where divorce courts are influencing equity, by having the parent who's career was not impacted by parental duties provide monetary support to the parent who was.

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