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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#41

Post by kemonocode »

avhon1 wrote: post #21
notRobot wrote: post #10

Stuff like this is what gives CoCs a bad rep, although when implemented well, they can be hugely beneficial to communities.

A key part of "implemented well" is the interpretation and execution by whoever is in charge. Unfortunately, there isn't really a way to know, or ensure, that a group of people will act in good faith and accordance with a document that they say they adhere to. That seems to have been part of the problem here -- Mr. Howard notes several ways in which the committee acted against their own code. I think this is (part of…

You can have the most flawlessly written, beautiful and well-meaning CoC, yet it won't do any good if it's interpreted by little despots.

I do agree Codes of Conduct are a tool like any other, but it's a tool that I've personally seen being misused so many times, it admittedly starts raising red flags. And if there's something human beings excel at, it's in finding patterns, no matter if they're poorly justified or not.

Subconsciously, I'm already avoiding contributing directly to projects with strict CoCs, and it's a bit painful when I do realize it, even if I've never willingly (or unwillingly, by virtue of keeping most communication with maintainers short, polite, straight to the point and erring on the side of caution) broken any.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#42

Post by PeterisP »

lukev wrote: post #4
anonymousiam wrote: post #2

So JupyterCon has been taken over by a bunch of Social Justice Warriors who seem to care less about content than about enforcing their standard for behavior. My advice is to just stop attending JupyterCon. Maybe create an alternative. One must be left wondering if the committee violated their own code of conduct by condemning Jeremy...

You clearly didn't read the article. The cited violations had nothing to do with "social justice", just with being (allegedly) "negative" and "insulting." It sounds like the whole situation was handled poorly, but clearly it is within the role of a conference organizer to reject overly negative or outright insulting talks. I don't know the details of this case and it sounds like communication with the talk author was…

While it is within the role of a conference organizer to choose what talks they will accept, in this particular case they seem to have grossly overstepped the acceptable bounds themselves. And this does not seem to be an error of fact or some misunderstanding, the actions of the CoC committee (at least as described) seem intentionally malicious without an acceptable justification - since the talk was simply obviously not outright insulting, the whole case was without merit.

What's sauce for goose is sauce for gander - perhaps the NumFOCUS individuals involved in that CoC committee should publicly stand by their decision, so that the community can evaluate whether we trust their judgement and are willing to allow those people to participate CoC enforcement in the future.

Enforcing communal norms requires that the community trusts that the enforcers actually do share these communal norms, and there should be a clear mechanism to remove them if they don't. Participants and speakers deserve protection and a fair judgement, but the 'political' positions of writing down and enforcing the norms should be able and required to substantiate and publicly defend their position and judgements - at least if they claim to represent the community instead their own unilateral position.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#43

Post by mynegation »

Ok JupyterCon people. You are wrong. You are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong.

The ability to voice a critique constructively is vital for a proper discourse. The ability to take a critique constructively is vital for a proper discourse.

If anyone thinks I am wrong in here, tell me and let’s duke it out.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#44

Post by ThrustVectoring »

There are two categories of rules: ones that are designed to be followed, and ones that are designed to bludgeon people with. Much like how a lot of knife law enforcement is mostly about having a convenient excuse for the police to harass minorities for being at the wrong place and the wrong time, a lot of Code of Conducts seem to me to be mostly about having a convenient excuse to punish and exclude people for having the wrong opinion.

I'm just glad that this example of the phenomenon was over technical disagreement rather than politics, that makes it much more illustrative.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#45

Post by perryizgr8 »

Ironic considering the author supports the same code for rebuking other people talking in ways he/she doesn't approve. Free speech is an either or, the moment you introduce conditions, be prepared for that to be used against you one day. Sad part is that the author still doesn't seem to understand this fact.

And I understand that free speech guarantees in the law are concerning the government. But I believe private citizens and organizations must also uphold the basic principles of free expression, otherwise it doesn't work.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#46

Post by Spivak »

Okay, forget the CoC for a second, can we evaluate this talk with just regular human empathy? Because I think he’s being somewhat of a dick. Like it’s a little rude and not in the best taste.

Like it was totally possible to give this talk in a positive manner talking about all the reasons you think notebooks are good and demonstrating the use-cases.

* You don’t have to call out or reference the original speaker at all and say they’re wrong. Even if they are objectively wrong don’t be a dick and call them out publicly. Just shoot them a message and they can post the correction themselves. Were taking a professional peer, not someone intentionally trying to mislead and arguing in bad faith.

* Talking over their original slides gives a super adversarial tone. You can give your reasons why notebooks are good and even tackle common criticisms without picking apart their talk specifically. It’s the conference version of the gross “name and shame pattern” you see all over the internet.

* Why would you say something negative about a peer’s work on stage? Like it’s fine to have an impassioned rant at the bar afterwords if you want but this is the spiritual equivalent of saying something negative about a coworker in front of them and their boss. If it were me it would certainly leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#47

Post by doubleunplussed »

There are a lot of words defending CoCs and the culture around them in this article, despite the author having been screwed over by one.

I think there is a bit of stockholm syndrome around these things. I know this is cliche, but despite mass famines under communism, you still hear people defending it saying "yes, but if implemented correctly...". At some point you need to admit that the repeated poor implementation of CoCs is fundamental to the concept.

You can't just hand power to people and expect it to work out. Especially people with a permanent chip on their shoulders, who are not neutral parties in let's say the "culture war", who are the exact people most likely to adopt them.

All CoCs are doing is allowing people in charge to exercise power without paying the social cost of having to look like they're using their judgement reasonably. Without a CoC, you were always allowed to kick someone out who was misbehaving, it's just you might look bad if people around you don't think you're being reasonable by doing so. Leaders of e.g. software projects were always dictators, but they still wanted people to like them and so there are natural limits on how much on an asshole you can be kicking people out who are misbehaving.

All a CoC does is give these people a document they can point to to justify their actions on paper, so that they don't need to justify that it was a judgement call. Now they can kick people out more easily because all that's happened is that their accountability has been reduced. This can be used for good and for evil, it depends on the person. The actual contents of the document are nearly irrelevant, you'll find something in there to pin on someone you don't like.

Then again, if I were writing this article I would pepper it with pro-social-justice shibboleths too, just because I wouldn't want people to write me off as alt-right or whatever and stop reading.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#48

Post by gorgoiler »

I do think it’s a bit odd that a notebook can hold intermediate state.

Or to put it another way: why isn’t “restart and clear output” the default and in fact only thing you can do? When would you want your notebook to ever look different to how it would look if you did a clean build?

...which leads to the observation that Jupyter combines text editor design, build system architecture, and programming language choice under one roof. It’s not surprising some people get hot under the collar about it, but anonymous accusations of CoC violatioN as a battlefront feels like a new low.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#49

Post by 762236 »

I stopped reading when he said he's fine with cancel culture: since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”. No, cancel culture is bullying.

Edit: I feel that the author was bullied, or mistreated, so I was primed to be upset when seeing his own dismissal of cancel culture.

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