This doesn't seem like it "allows" a backdoor; it seems like it requires one. (IANAL, etc etc.) So much for the EU's vaunted privacy rights...
No it gives the authorities the right to tap phones by e.g using 0 days.
Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
41–50 of 59 posts
Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
#42This doesn't seem like it "allows" a backdoor; it seems like it requires one. (IANAL, etc etc.) So much for the EU's vaunted privacy rights...
> So much for the EU's vaunted privacy rights... Do people really have such an impression? In 2006 the EU passed a directive that obligated all ISPs to effectively save your browsing history.[0] They had to keep this for a minimum of 6 months. It took until 2014 for the directive to be found to be invalid. It worked until then though. And that's on the EU level. My expectations are even lower when it comes to individ…
But the data collection comes with safeguards to accesing the data. You need a court order to request it. This is not state ordered mass surveillance but rather gives police a right to monitor when they have a court order.
Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
So this is something like planting a microphone into your house so they can hear your conversations (with a warrant)? That doesn't really sound too bad, it's targeted and you have to go through the proper channels to get authorization.
Coming from the country that had the Stasi, no. It's very bad. The Stasi was so smart, they knew it wasn't threatening you with violence that made you complicit, it's blackmail and threats to your loved ones or ruining your career. Also absurd types of guilt trips that make you feel obligated to comply with the objective of the state for other people.
Exactly this.
The best return on investment in surveillance is always, always, always extortion. The spooks like to extort by threatening to reveal crimes, or prosecute them. Ever heard of plea bargaining? Most often the promise of "reduced" charges is exchanged for participating in surveillance, yielding more victims and more pigeons. Spies like to get other kinds of cooperation, for other kinds of threats--including revealing that you already caved once. Some people have enemies who would act on revelations. Most people have relatives who wouldn't want them harmed. Judges have relatives. Ever wondered at Judges blatantly violating settled law? It is not always just because they felt like it. Since surveillance always involves official secrecy, it is easily and widely abused, and abuse is never, ever prosecuted.
Do you wonder why politicians stay exactly in line, these days? Think they just don't have any ambition, no independence, no cojones?
We already have a surveillance system in place that the STASI could only have ever dreamed of.
Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
#44This doesn't seem like it "allows" a backdoor; it seems like it requires one. (IANAL, etc etc.) So much for the EU's vaunted privacy rights...
Contrary to American beliefs that three letter security agencies are some angels that follow the law, most of us with our long term experience with dictatorships across the continent, are more than aware that even with democracy, the information services of each state are quite flexible in their interpretation of what is allowed or not.
Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not, do you consider legal wiretaps bad?
No, but wiretaps typically have scalability problems that prevent their widespread use. There's a high marginal cost (labor + equipment) with physical wiretaps, but with digital wiretaps the marginal cost is effectively zero.
A wiretap by compromising a specific device using an exploit after obtaining a court order is also likely fairly high-effort.
Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Coming from the country that had the Stasi, no. It's very bad. The Stasi was so smart, they knew it wasn't threatening you with violence that made you complicit, it's blackmail and threats to your loved ones or ruining your career. Also absurd types of guilt trips that make you feel obligated to comply with the objective of the state for other people.
So you consider legal wiretapping and following people immoral as well?
If it is cheap and easy, there is no reason to assume it will only, or even mainly, be legal.
Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
So this is something like planting a microphone into your house so they can hear your conversations (with a warrant)? That doesn't really sound too bad, it's targeted and you have to go through the proper channels to get authorization.
The problem with similar laws has always been that there are no proper channels. There were cases those were just flat out ignored. And in other laws released numbers showed that less than 1% of requests were denied. These requirements are for optics only, they are never in place in practice. Another example is a police internal system to request information about citizens. That has been abused many times to spy on n…
> less than 1% of requests were denied
The statistics of a rubber-stamp court are identical to a court, where the requirements for an approved request are so clear that no one ever submits requests that are likely to be denied.
To prove what you are claiming, you have to actually show that a large number of accepted requests were "unethical".
Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
if the authorities gain physical access to your devices while you're not at home and pwn them with a keystroke logger that phones home + automated screenshot tool, all bets are off.
Who would leave their mobile phone at home?
Someone having an alternate phone for their secret activities.
Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
#49A couple problems with this submission:
(1) articles on HN need to be in English. We have deep respect for the German language and for other languages, but HN is an English-language site;
(2) we've gotten complaints about this title being misleading and/or completely wrong.
I've edited the title now in an attempt to be more accurate. (Submitted title was "Germany's Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing WhatsApp/Messenger backdoor".) If there's a more accurate and neutral title we can change it again.
Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So much for the EU's vaunted privacy rights... Do people really have such an impression? In 2006 the EU passed a directive that obligated all ISPs to effectively save your browsing history.[0] They had to keep this for a minimum of 6 months. It took until 2014 for the directive to be found to be invalid. It worked until then though. And that's on the EU level. My expectations are even lower when it comes to individ…
But the data collection comes with safeguards to accesing the data. You need a court order to request it. This is not state ordered mass surveillance but rather gives police a right to monitor when they have a court order.
Secret court orders. We have already seen where that naturally goes. Each abuse makes the next easier.