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We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

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Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#41

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

kriro wrote: post #5

Very nicely executed device with a good price point. Of course it's an utter nightmare with regards to privacy and I'd be very nervous regarding security and safety when I'd hand over the controls of my car to basically an android phone. Maybe I skimmed over it but I'd be interested in knowing which phones they use exactly. So I applaud the engineering but it's not a device I'd buy (and yes I do own and carry around…

I'm much less worried about privacy with an open-source solution. At least I can inspect the various ways in which they spy on me, and if I'm super extra motivated I could stop that. Tesla, on the other hand, is the real nightmare.

Can I even buy a new car in the U.S. these days that isn't a rolling Orwellian nightmare?

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#42

Post by RHSeeger »

izacus wrote: post #25
bipson wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually concerning that you can inject false sensor data this easily. I mean, sure, the messages on the CAN will not be encrypted or signed in any way, I know, but still...

Why exactly would be concerning? You need to physically plug cables in the car you yourself own. If anything, every access to hardware you own SHOULD be this easy.

I would bet good money that there's many cars where the CAN is accessible by an ECU which has internet (or other remote) access.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#43

Post by dogma1138 »

I wonder how regulators and most insurers treat those.

It won’t surprise me if these might not be “road legal” modifications, or at least modifications that may incur additional criminal liability Im also pretty sure that insurers can use these to deny claims if accidents happen.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#44

Post by saddlerustle »

ezconnect wrote: post #15
raziel2p wrote: post #3

The most surprising part about this to me is that there seems to be a somewhat standardized computer interface for controlling cars with an external device. I would never have guessed that, I thought for sure every maker would come up with their own unique design and require you to buy adapters or whatnot.

CAN bus is the standard physical interface. What is not standard is the message being passed, so each car will have it's own message for car information. What surprised me about OpenPilot is how some of the electric steering system can be tricked into turning using false sensor data. It's actually amazing that almost all cars now can be driven by software the only thing missing are more accurate and complicated senso…

OpenPilot doesn't "trick" the steering system using "false sensor data". The steering controller just accepts messages for commanding steering over CAN bus. The same messages are used by the stock ADAS system.

Also, this bus is not usually exposed to the OBD port, so OpenPilot just connects to the same port the stock ADAS ECU uses.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#45

Post by BunsanSpace »

bipson wrote: post #21
kriro wrote: post #5

Very nicely executed device with a good price point. Of course it's an utter nightmare with regards to privacy and I'd be very nervous regarding security and safety when I'd hand over the controls of my car to basically an android phone. Maybe I skimmed over it but I'd be interested in knowing which phones they use exactly. So I applaud the engineering but it's not a device I'd buy (and yes I do own and carry around…

My main concern would be that the architecture of an OTS Android system does not offer any guarantees regarding real-time i.e. hard deadlines. Ever had an android app or even the whole phone locking up? Even if it is only for a second or two, I don't want this to happen to a device that feeds live data into my car's controller. Even if this is only level 2 driver assist. If a car would get a bogus "you are crossing a…

I think thats the ultimate plan, but if you listen to GeoHotz talk about it, he really wants an economical self driving solution. E.g. waymo cars cost 100k+ and thus isn't economical.

It's also opensource so I think the end game is to have manufactures adopt this and go through the whole song and dance of getting it full validated on their vehicles.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#46

Post by foiblesprickly »

dogma1138 wrote: post #43

I wonder how regulators and most insurers treat those. It won’t surprise me if these might not be “road legal” modifications, or at least modifications that may incur additional criminal liability Im also pretty sure that insurers can use these to deny claims if accidents happen.

ive been looking at getting this for my CRV for about 1 year. most insurance companies are fine with adding this device to your plan as ive inquired and read about several experiences with it.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#47

Post by jimmyjack »

I want a device that will not control the car but will give more a ton of real-time information, ideally projected on some corner of my windshield.

Information including:

1. Speed limit for the area/road I am in.

2. Real time radar report telling me how many cars/pedestrians e.t.c are around me.

3. Information on common accident types in the area I am driving in.

4. For my corner of the world, it will be good to get a report on road status before I take the route - something like gravel, cratered e.t.c

I suspect that something like this would sell like crazy for existing cars. Basically a thing were I install a camera/sensor that is hooked to such a device.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#48

Post by jbob2000 »

jimmyjack wrote: post #47

I want a device that will not control the car but will give more a ton of real-time information, ideally projected on some corner of my windshield. Information including: 1. Speed limit for the area/road I am in. 2. Real time radar report telling me how many cars/pedestrians e.t.c are around me. 3. Information on common accident types in the area I am driving in. 4. For my corner of the world, it will be good to get…

It’s called a brain. You pay attention and read the speed signs as you enter an area. You use your peripheral vision to watch for pedestrians and traffic. And what would a report on common accidents be for, aside from some interesting statistical anomalies? You should still pay attention and drive safely, regardless of whether or not the area had 4 red light speeding tickets given last month or 8.

You’re basically suggesting using a smartphone camera to walk around town, when you could just, y’know, use your eyes.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#50

Post by numpad0 »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #35
izacus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why exactly would be concerning? You need to physically plug cables in the car you yourself own. If anything, every access to hardware you own SHOULD be this easy.

The CAN bus is shared by a number of devices, each with its own microprocessor and thus (in principle) potentially subject to exploits that cause it to run malicious code. Some of the devices on the bus interact with the outside world via cellular, Wifi, Bluetooth and USB. The disturbing idea here is that your car is basically an internally-unfirewalled network of computers that can kill you if they malfunction.

They can firewall or encrypt the bus, but if security fails, that can kill you as well by erroneously refusing to work.
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