Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

vice.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 137 posts

Re: 1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

#41

Post by pvaldes »

throwaway123x2 wrote: post #26
pvaldes wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Islam accepts scientific discoveries but attributes them to God So... Who invented computers? god. Who discovered radium? god... Who earned all nobel prices? god? :-) Exams must be really easy then. This is politics or ideology, not science. Ideology wearing a fur of dead science is more common that it seems nowadays (and is not exclusive from Islamic schools, it seems)

The discovery isn't attributed to God, but the existence of the phenomenon. So in your example, God made radium. God made the raw materials to make computers and gave man the intellect to make them.

> The discovery isn't attributed to God, but the existence of the phenomenon.

So basically they are frozen in a "Galileo Galilei" period?

This could explain part of the claimed scientific decline

Re: 1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

#43

Post by eska »

rtkwe wrote: post #35
pvaldes wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Islam accepts scientific discoveries but attributes them to God So... Who invented computers? god. Who discovered radium? god... Who earned all nobel prices? god? :-) Exams must be really easy then. This is politics or ideology, not science. Ideology wearing a fur of dead science is more common that it seems nowadays (and is not exclusive from Islamic schools, it seems)

No you're misunderstanding, what I think they're saying is that things like evolution, big bang, etc are the mechanisms of god, i.e. god set all this in motion. It's an easy way to integrate science and religion so long as you're not a biblical (or whatever the equivalent in your religion is) literalist. Maybe god did setup this universe like a giant clockwork toy and all we're discovering are the gears and springs o…

That contradicts with the article. The article states that the Muslim scholar theorized that god actively mutates the animals that want to adapt, i.e. god didn't just invent "the mechanism" of mutation, as you say.

Re: 1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

#44

Post by artificial »

curiousgal wrote: post #9
eska wrote: post #7

I was excited to hear about this due to the golden age of science in the Arabic world, which was a high point of Arabic culture that has since then unfortunately declined. But wondering how the scholar was able to do this research despite Islam, it turns out that he made god responsible for the mutation, the animals just have a desire to adapt. The article makes it sound like that's a trivial difference to Darwin, bu…

I grew up in a Muslim country, unlike Christianity, Islam accepts scientific discoveries but attributes them to God instead. For instance, we were taught about the Big Bang in an Islamic Thinking class but the trick was that "God was responsible for it".

Interesting, are you aware that the big bang theory originated from a Belgian priest?

Re: 1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

#45

Post by wait_a_minute »

curiousgal wrote: post #9
eska wrote: post #7

I was excited to hear about this due to the golden age of science in the Arabic world, which was a high point of Arabic culture that has since then unfortunately declined. But wondering how the scholar was able to do this research despite Islam, it turns out that he made god responsible for the mutation, the animals just have a desire to adapt. The article makes it sound like that's a trivial difference to Darwin, bu…

I grew up in a Muslim country, unlike Christianity, Islam accepts scientific discoveries but attributes them to God instead. For instance, we were taught about the Big Bang in an Islamic Thinking class but the trick was that "God was responsible for it".

If you are attributing scientific discoveries to God, then that's not exactly accepting the discoveries - it's just pushing God further to the gaps. Christianity does the same thing.

Re: 1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

#46

Post by wait_a_minute »

Religions might accidentally guess the correct thing part of the time. But that would be despite the numerous examples of religions being extremely wrong most other times. Islam is no different. This feels like a massive stretch you'd expect from an apologist, not an actual scientist.

Re: 1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

#47

Post by sfjailbird »

There is a verse in the Quran[1] about the origins of the universe and life:

And have not the ones who disbelieved seen that the heavens and the earth were an integrated (mass), then We unseamed them, and of water We have made every living thing? Would they then not believe?

Commentators observe that this verse at the same time lends support to the idea of the Big Bang, and the origins of life in water. Thus there is a lot of support for these theories among Muslims, including the idea of evolution of one kind or another.

[1] https://quran.com/21/30?translations=32,40,84,19,21,20,101,8...

Re: 1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

#48

Post by jmull »

curiousgal wrote: post #9
eska wrote: post #7

I was excited to hear about this due to the golden age of science in the Arabic world, which was a high point of Arabic culture that has since then unfortunately declined. But wondering how the scholar was able to do this research despite Islam, it turns out that he made god responsible for the mutation, the animals just have a desire to adapt. The article makes it sound like that's a trivial difference to Darwin, bu…

I grew up in a Muslim country, unlike Christianity, Islam accepts scientific discoveries but attributes them to God instead. For instance, we were taught about the Big Bang in an Islamic Thinking class but the trick was that "God was responsible for it".

> unlike Christianity

Whew. That's definitely NOT something you can say generally of Christians. The ones saying crazy stuff get all the attention, but it's not as mainstream as you might have been led to believe.

For example, current (I think) Catholic doctrine is similar to the Islamic position you describe:

Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth. ... Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God despite himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.

So that's a rather large fraction of Christians. (I was raised Catholic, and, "truth cannot contradict truth" -- obviously a reference to the same thing as this catechism -- was what I was told on this question. So from my perspective, this wasn't just an obscure position, but something actively taught.)

If you're interested, here's a link to the wikipedia article, which has links to other sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_the_Catholic_Churc...

Re: 1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

#49

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c »

themgt wrote: post #14

This Twitter thread[1] from a professor specializing in Islamic thought debunks these claims and links to a paper making the counterargument in more detail[2]. [1] https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1314372114946895873 [2] https://www.academia.edu/39234303/Old_Texts_New_Masks_A_Crit...

The argument in this article is not at all surprising coming from the likes of VICE, Vox, Buzzfeed and co. There's a particular narrative they seem to want to advance regardless of how well-supported their positions are.

Re: 1000 Years Before Darwin, Islamic Scholars Were Writing About Natural Selection

#50

Post by Ccecil »

sfjailbird wrote: post #47

There is a verse in the Quran[1] about the origins of the universe and life: And have not the ones who disbelieved seen that the heavens and the earth were an integrated (mass), then We unseamed them, and of water We have made every living thing? Would they then not believe? Commentators observe that this verse at the same time lends support to the idea of the Big Bang, and the origins of life in water. Thus there is…

I find it interesting that the story of "Genesis" in the Bible basically goes through the order of operations for how the universe formed (aside from a couple of the days out of order...but it is very close). It does lean towards at least a reasonable assumption of what came first. Makes me think there was some sort of "knowledge" being encoded in the story that was attempting to teach the uneducated of the time.
Post reply on HN