Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart • Hacker News Board

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#41

Post by dfischer » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

the8472 wrote: post #35

dfischer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My critique of is shaded by an irritation of within the both the "non-scientific" community that has been indoctrinated to take what "scientists" say as expert factual irrefutable statements and the "scientific" community that has become not what I'd call scientific and more close to dogma, orthodox, ideological, and or protectionist to break novel grounds. The scientific community is explicitly sanctioned by a centr…

This doesn't seem particularly helpful for the conversation here. Claiming something is self-aware because I say so or because I don't trust the state of research will hardly convince anyone. Random social media videos of animals exhibiting interesting behavior is not sufficient either, it is interesting but can be misattributed due to anthropomorphisation. And if you want to preach about better communicating uncerta…

Well I appreciate the audience for whatever its worth. The exchange added value. Thanks!

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#42

Post by exo-pla-net » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

rtx wrote: post #20

I always feel a bit disappointed when science catches up to traditional or observational knowledge. It feels like so much opportunity being lost.

You're disappointed by the discovery of a new brain structure? This seems like a wonderful discovery to me.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#43

Post by rbecker » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 8:57 PM UTC

exo-pla-net wrote: post #10

deeblering4 wrote: post #2

I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating. Simply because we cannot speak a common language we assume creatures are drones with no intelligence or emotion, until we can somehow prove otherwise. It almost speaks more to the human psyche than anything else.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

The mirror test also gives widely different results in humans. Canadian children pass it at 2 years old, while Kenyans fail at 5: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Journal%20of%20Cross...

Would you conclude from it that Kenyan children are less (or not at all) "self-aware" than Canadian ones? Or that the leap from "recognize reflection" to "self-awareness" is unjustified?

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#44

Post by ganzuul » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

liability wrote: post #40

root_axis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mirror-test is not even close to exhaustive with respect to conclusions about self-awareness. It is certainly conceivable that a self-aware creature could simply be incapable of understanding a mirror or that they might be otherwise indifferent to what they see in it. For example, dogs fail the mirror test, but they are obviously self-aware creatures.

Cats supposedly fail the mirror test, but I think they're just disinterested. There are a lot of videos of cats being shown live video of themselves and their owners, with the owner's face modified to look like a cat. In many of these the startled cat immediately turns around to look at their owner, seemingly indicating an awareness that the video they were being shown contained themselves and that the weird cat-like…

Here is a cat discovering its own ears in a mirror: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akE2Sgg8hI8

Cats grow old too. They have time to learn.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#45

Post by smallnamespace » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

dfischer wrote: post #30

stouset wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have any better ideas, the scientific community would legitimately love to hear them. It’s not like nobody realizes that we don’t have flawless definitions for “self-aware”, “intelligent”, or even “life” . Or that the experiments we devise to test for these things come from our own experiences and bias, and might exclude creatures with novel presentations of these traits. But they’re the best we have for now.…

If it keeps hurting, it should keep being mentioned. When things that hurt are turned into silence, then things don't change that can stop hurt. I understand your point though, and I'm sorry if it came off as an attack. It's a criticism rooted in a few things. I typed up more here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24601665

I mean, would you go around reminding your friends of their shortcomings and then reminding them how helpful your feedback is?

Sometimes people are well aware of the problems and are actively trying to solve them.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#46

Post by thatguy0900 » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

rbecker wrote: post #43

exo-pla-net wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

The mirror test also gives widely different results in humans. Canadian children pass it at 2 years old, while Kenyans fail at 5: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Journal%20of%20Cross... Would you conclude from it that Kenyan children are less (or not at all) "self-aware" than Canadian ones? Or that the leap from "recognize reflection" to "self-awareness" is unjustified?

What a minefield of a question

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#47

Post by the8472 » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

rbecker wrote: post #43

exo-pla-net wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

The mirror test also gives widely different results in humans. Canadian children pass it at 2 years old, while Kenyans fail at 5: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Journal%20of%20Cross... Would you conclude from it that Kenyan children are less (or not at all) "self-aware" than Canadian ones? Or that the leap from "recognize reflection" to "self-awareness" is unjustified?

Skimming the paper, the researchers already propose their own interpretation of possible causes, but one thing I couldn't find is whether they controlled for familiarity with mirrors. A full-height mirror (within reach of small children) might simply be more common in western households.

Edit, nevermind, there's a whole paragraph on that towards the end:

> It may be important to note the general use of mirrors in each of the cultures. Although we did not include an independent measure of the extent and nature of mirror experience in these cul-tures, the experimenters visited many homes in these various communities. Although mirrors are present in most non-Western and all Western homes, their use varies considerably. It is more conspicuously and frequently used in the West, compared to any of the other cultures considered here. Western children are more likely to have shared mirror exposure with others or to have seen themselves in a mirror in the presence of others, a situation presumably unfamiliar to the non-Western children we tested. The unfamiliarity with public mirror exposure may be linked to the enhanced “freezing” behavior by non-Western children, particularly when discovering that their face is marked. This inhibition may correspond to the fact that children do not know how to behave, one way or another, in this context.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#48

Post by mensetmanusman » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

deeblering4 wrote: post #2

I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating. Simply because we cannot speak a common language we assume creatures are drones with no intelligence or emotion, until we can somehow prove otherwise. It almost speaks more to the human psyche than anything else.

We also argue whether others outside of our mind are self-aware.

And most physicists think free will is bunk and therefore we are not self-aware, everything is an illusion.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#49

Post by andrei_says_ » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #48

deeblering4 wrote: post #2

I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating. Simply because we cannot speak a common language we assume creatures are drones with no intelligence or emotion, until we can somehow prove otherwise. It almost speaks more to the human psyche than anything else.

We also argue whether others outside of our mind are self-aware. And most physicists think free will is bunk and therefore we are not self-aware, everything is an illusion.

I’m not a physicist bu I’ve been observing my choices for years (Advaita practice) and still haven’t noticed anything I could call free will.

Unless we agree to call “life long conditioning, genetic makeup, trauma responses, habitual responses, present emotional state, thoughts and beliefs, environment, stimuli, any and all cultural influences, present blood sugar, hormonal levels, pulse, all preferences associated with avoidance of pain and striving for pleasure etc.” and a bunch of other factors which factors are absolutely out of our control, “free will”.

Once I started unpacking the phrase it became nonsensical.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#50

Post by rbecker » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

the8472 wrote: post #47

rbecker wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mirror test also gives widely different results in humans. Canadian children pass it at 2 years old, while Kenyans fail at 5: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Journal%20of%20Cross... Would you conclude from it that Kenyan children are less (or not at all) "self-aware" than Canadian ones? Or that the leap from "recognize reflection" to "self-awareness" is unjustified?

Skimming the paper, the researchers already propose their own interpretation of possible causes, but one thing I couldn't find is whether they controlled for familiarity with mirrors. A full-height mirror (within reach of small children) might simply be more common in western households. Edit, nevermind, there's a whole paragraph on that towards the end: > It may be important to note the general use of mirrors in eac…

They also cite a different study:

In contrast, research with humans suggests that children’s relative familiarity with mirrors, which greatly varies across contexts, does not correlate with the age at which the mark test is passed (Priel & deSchonen, 1986). Priel and deShonen (1986) tested Bedouin nomadic children with no previous mirror experience and compared them to same-age Israeli children familiar with mirrors. They found no significant difference in the developmental onset of MSR between mirror familiar and unfamiliar children.