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Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

theguardian.com

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Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#41

Post by viraptor »

rsync wrote: post #11
Aloha wrote: post #2

As someone who builds telecommunications systems for first responders, I'm not convinced that a chat service, and online technology is better than narrowband 2-way radio, and paper maps. These backcountry places often have no cell service, and paper maps don't have technical difficulties - and are easy/cheap to duplicate and hand out, in addition to being naturally rugged. So this means, expensive non-terrestrial com…

I am a firefighter/EMR in California. There is nothing wrong with two way radios, per se . The issue is the FCC "typing" rules that disallow a single device operating on multiple, disparate frequency bands. Imagine I respond to a car accident and need to call for a helicopter and arrange a landing zone. In this situation, I will be juggling four brick sized radios throughout the duration of that call.[1] Possibly whi…

Without much knowledge about the process: Is it a problem to have it handled via some centre? I.e. you're asking X to dispatch all of those requests for you which would free you up to drive? (And get either one of those calls connected directly to you as needed)

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#42

Post by davidbanham »

I’m a bush fire fighter in Australia. We do make use of technology and we’re bringing more in but reliability and dependability is _so critical_.

All of my brigades trucks have iPads which are useful for accessing maps, running collaborative fireground apps like collector, firemapper or rfsBuddy, etc. All of these things are “nice to have” though. We don’t rely on it for anything we must have, because it fails from time to time.

We use apps like Rover and Bart to manage call outs. They’re great because we can see who’s responding, how far away they are, etc. We also all carry ancient pagers because they’re bulletproof and mobile phones aren’t. They’re served by a hardened transmission network where every tower has backup power in case the grid goes down.

Tech is great but in extreme environments like a wildfire I want to have a paper map with me and I want to know how to use it. Just in case.

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#43

Post by FlyMoreRockets »

viraptor wrote: post #41
rsync wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a firefighter/EMR in California. There is nothing wrong with two way radios, per se . The issue is the FCC "typing" rules that disallow a single device operating on multiple, disparate frequency bands. Imagine I respond to a car accident and need to call for a helicopter and arrange a landing zone. In this situation, I will be juggling four brick sized radios throughout the duration of that call.[1] Possibly whi…

Without much knowledge about the process: Is it a problem to have it handled via some centre? I.e. you're asking X to dispatch all of those requests for you which would free you up to drive? (And get either one of those calls connected directly to you as needed)

Exactly this. I spent decades as a FF/EMT and that's the way it was typically done.

I did however, often carry a Baofeng programmed with _all_ the services with which I was likely to interact as a backup: MedEvac, EMS, law enforcement and fire services. Yes, I am a licensed ham operator.

The problem is there is no national emergency interop frequency plan, each state, county and city does things differently.

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#44

Post by Enginerrrd »

I want to take whoever wrote this and throw 40lbs of gear on their back (which is light, but that's just so they don't fully break on the trip) and have them go hump with me it over the roughest imaginable terrain and let them carry all the tech and batteries they want to their heart's content while we go cut fire lines. After they see how useless and unnecessary all that crap is, and how it goes tits up from being dropped/smashed/heated, and how unnecessary it is to do the job they need to do, I'd love to see them pack up their rucksack for the next trip. I'll bet a LOT of money they don't take any of it.

Firefighters don't need a fucking ipad to cut lines. They need a pickaxe, chainsaws, shovels, etc.

Technology in this type of application is almost never more efficient or better than existing methods, but it gets used when it reduces training costs enough to be deployed.

I worked EMS. If I needed to find a house fast and reliably, I'll use the custom fire department's map binder over any technology solution you can come up with any day and it will be superior in essentially every way.

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#45

Post by Aloha »

e_d_e_v wrote: post #23
hatsunearu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the proposed benefits of 4G/5G is that they can make microcells that can do exactly that, with the client devices being regular phones.

Well, it seems ridiculous to say that, because there have been 3g microcells (openbsc, for example) forever. It seems bizarre that we couldn't have a switch in every truck that turns it into a mobile microcell for <$100. The backhaul is the problem, because normal microcells are connected to the internet via hardline IP communication . . . . which could be done with modern satellite. The problem is that if you are se…

Motorla sells LTE enabled radios, but changing from a narrowband air interface to a wideband one doesnt get you much, terrestrial can work in these situations, they dont need phone calls, they need radio and data communications - mostly data.

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#46

Post by Aloha »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #26

I hope not to trivialize things too much, but firefighting almost seems like a RTS game, especially if one can get drones/satellite/etc to provide real time updates to the "game map". Even if there is the command chain that disrupts direct communication with your "units", the communication down the chain could probably be automated from the interface.

They use helicopters and fixed wing aircraft as firespotters, its not a command and control data problem, its not even getting data out to the units problem, its an interop problem.

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#47

Post by krapht »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #44

I want to take whoever wrote this and throw 40lbs of gear on their back (which is light, but that's just so they don't fully break on the trip) and have them go hump with me it over the roughest imaginable terrain and let them carry all the tech and batteries they want to their heart's content while we go cut fire lines. After they see how useless and unnecessary all that crap is, and how it goes tits up from being d…

You're exaggerating a little but I agree. I think your example with the FD map binder is a little weird though because that is the one thing that is worse than a maps app with real-time traffic updates. That's a killer feature especially during rush hour. The suburban department I volunteered in was known for having the second worst traffic in the US behind Los Angeles, so it's a little bit of a special circumstance.

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#48

Post by leetrout »

krapht wrote: post #47
Enginerrrd wrote: post #44

I want to take whoever wrote this and throw 40lbs of gear on their back (which is light, but that's just so they don't fully break on the trip) and have them go hump with me it over the roughest imaginable terrain and let them carry all the tech and batteries they want to their heart's content while we go cut fire lines. After they see how useless and unnecessary all that crap is, and how it goes tits up from being d…

You're exaggerating a little but I agree. I think your example with the FD map binder is a little weird though because that is the one thing that is worse than a maps app with real-time traffic updates. That's a killer feature especially during rush hour. The suburban department I volunteered in was known for having the second worst traffic in the US behind Los Angeles, so it's a little bit of a special circumstance.

Northern Virginia?

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#49

Post by [deleted] »

Aloha wrote: post #45
e_d_e_v wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it seems ridiculous to say that, because there have been 3g microcells (openbsc, for example) forever. It seems bizarre that we couldn't have a switch in every truck that turns it into a mobile microcell for <$100. The backhaul is the problem, because normal microcells are connected to the internet via hardline IP communication . . . . which could be done with modern satellite. The problem is that if you are se…

Motorla sells LTE enabled radios, but changing from a narrowband air interface to a wideband one doesnt get you much, terrestrial can work in these situations, they dont need phone calls, they need radio and data communications - mostly data.

[deleted]
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