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FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

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Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#41

Post by nika »

jackowayed wrote: post #27
nika wrote: post #7

Reagan is the one who signed "asset forfeiture" into law. I remember at the time reading newspaper articles claiming this was "just going to be used to keep drugs off the streets" and how "law enforcement are outgunned and now can defend themselves against drug dealers". It was obvious to me then that this was a violation of due process. Also, it is not authorized by the constitution, and thus every act of seizure un…

> There is a federal law that makes it a felony to violate constitutional rights under color of law. Never heard of that. Link?

Here it is: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000242----...

USC 18-242

I called it a felony though the law only makes it one if a "dangerous weapon" is involved.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#43

Post by _ouxp »

nika wrote: post #7

Reagan is the one who signed "asset forfeiture" into law. I remember at the time reading newspaper articles claiming this was "just going to be used to keep drugs off the streets" and how "law enforcement are outgunned and now can defend themselves against drug dealers". It was obvious to me then that this was a violation of due process. Also, it is not authorized by the constitution, and thus every act of seizure un…

Are you referring to the Liberty Dollar? I remember being very interested in this (and in alternative currencies) a few years back but was put off by a video promoted on their official website which showed someone successfully passing a Liberty Dollar at a drive-through to an employee who asked, "what's this?", and was told that it was "a new dollar coin."

At that point, they had unclean hands in my mind. The basis for an alternative currency should be consent, not confusion.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#44

Post by patrickyeon »

fanboy123 wrote: post #24

CNBC Twitter: Three Largest Internet Poker Companies Charged With Fraud, Illegal Gambling - Pokerstars, Full Tilt Poker, & Absolute Poker - Charged

MarketWatch says it's bank fraud, money laundering, and illegal gambling.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/doj-indicts-founders-of-top...

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#45

Post by knowtheory »

dstein wrote: post #37

Has a bureau of the US federal government just claimed ultimate authority over the internet's domain name system? If this is the case, then obviously we have a very serious problem on our hands. This threatens the way the internet works at the infrastructure level. Clearly the US needs to be stripped of their root DNS server privileges.

This has been a criticism of ICANN since the very beginning of the internet. This has always been a serious problem, especially since ICANN was setup under the auspices of the Department of Commerce.

And, i'd love to see your alternative proposal for who should run root DNS. Cause the US is nakedly political and partisan, but at least it's nakedly so. :\

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#46

Post by pero »

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Federal authorities unsealed an indictment Friday against the founders of the three largest internet poker companies operating in the U.S. The indictment charges eleven defendants, including the founders of PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker, and Absolute Poker, with bank fraud, money laundering, and illegal gambling offenses, according to Federal authorities in New York. Restraining orders were issued against more than 75 bank accounts used by the poker companies and their payment processors, while five Internet domain names used by the companies to host poker games were seized, federal authorities added in a statement. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/doj-indicts-founders-of-top...

Indictment http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/April11/schein...

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#47

Post by davidcann »

eof wrote: post #18

Wow this is huge. I used to play online poker for a living, I had a decent chunk of cash locked up for almost a year when they came down on online poker previously (UIGEA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFE_Port_Act#Internet_gambling... It's worth noting that these are NOT American companies. It doesn't look like anyone (players) has had their assests seized; but this is bad news for a lot of people. It also appears p…

The real issue here is the seizure of domain names. US citizens who gamble online know full well that they're breaking the law and are subject to lose assets.

The domain seizures are very troubling, though.

Edit: There seems to be some dispute over where it's a crime to "participate" in different US states, but for the purposes of the "customer assests seized", the transaction is illegal, so it's to be expected that the "cash is locked up" as the result of government action.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#48

Post by nika »

jonknee wrote: post #35
nika wrote: post #7

Reagan is the one who signed "asset forfeiture" into law. I remember at the time reading newspaper articles claiming this was "just going to be used to keep drugs off the streets" and how "law enforcement are outgunned and now can defend themselves against drug dealers". It was obvious to me then that this was a violation of due process. Also, it is not authorized by the constitution, and thus every act of seizure un…

While I find this ridiculous, it's quite different from the Liberty Dollar case which you mentioned losing $20 in. In the US it is clearly illegal to begin running your own currency and has been for a long time. The fact that NotHaus went as far as putting the word Dollar on it was just the icing on the cake.

Visa is a currency. So are travellers checks and regular old checking checks and coupons. All of these are also denominated in dollars. If you were to take some time and study the actual laws, and also check out the legal opinions, from members of boards of federal reserve branches, as well as the secret service and lawyers that were obtained before the Liberty Dollar project was started you'd recognize just how absurd this case is.

But most people do not do the research. Most people assume that only the government can "make money" and most people fall for the idea that putting the word "dollar" on something somehow makes it counterfeit. It is this ignorance that lets them get away with such crimes.

I'm not trying to call you ignorant (as a pejorative). I'm just trying to say that I read the relevant laws, including the ones cited in the case against NotHaus et. al. and they do not prohibit what the Liberty Dollar was actually doing. Not at all.

In fact, the only thing illegal would be to make exact copies of US currency and pass them off as real. That is counterfeiting.

I can make a currency out of coffee beans or silver and try to get people to trade in it... and there's nothing illegal about it.

It is also known as barter.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#49

Post by slay2k »

iwwr wrote: post #29
vnorby wrote: post #5

WHOA, that's really big news for the poker industry. These are all very large, very big businesses (talking billions of dollars) in the US. Can anyone confirm if their poker clients are still functioning properly?

Weren't they all banned in the US a few years ago? Illegal even for banks to process transactions to them.

A number of sites completely withdrew from the US (Party, Pacific, etc), either out of fear or because of their particular company's corporate setups / locations.

A few big ones remained operational for US players, the biggest being Stars and FullTilt, with the only change being refusal to accept credit cards as a deposit method. I'd venture to say millions of bank deposits have occurred since then within the US, and the legality of it all was never black and white, and certainly not enforced in any way.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#50

Post by eftpotrm »

While I'm not at all surprised to see this happening, I'm still astonished that the USA continues to try to stamp out gambling through legislation. I remember growing up being astonished at the number of references on USA TV shows to illegal gambling; I've never once come across it in the UK.

I love cricket, but there's been a persistent series of match-fixing and spot-fixing allegations for years, almost exclusively originating from illegal south Asian (primarily Indian) bookmakers. The legal markets haven't been the source of this sort of problem at all.

Much as I might not like gambling, there is a persistent human desire for it and the evidence seems to be that banning it, as so often, exacerbates rather than minimises harm. The US government should stop trying to hold back the tide on this.

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