The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take) • Hacker News Board

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#41

Post by fsloth » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 2:13 PM UTC

overkalix wrote: post #23

fsloth wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically entire Europe was a warzone from the end of the Roman period to... oh, Ukraine.. well, Europe still is a warzone but much less so now than in the past centuries. The middle ages wars didn't really involve the population. They were more a matter of aristocracy. Cities were raized, since those where the way to control land, but you generally left the peasants and their lords alone. Peasants really didn't care…

> wars mostly affected the 'state' and not the people that much How do you exactly think armies are fed, armed, and paid? There are innumerable examples of revolts ignited due to the abuses of the local or occupying army. This idea of "limited" warfare where a king took a few men and fought it out with his rival with the population not caring or suffering much is utterly deluded.

Perhaps I wrote imprecisely. I did not claim the population did not suffer. I meant that the aim of the warfare was rarely annihilation of native population. You wanted to have native population, as having native population farm the land was the only way to extract revenue from the land.

The main question I wanted to answer was how could a stable culture survive in an area that went through so many wars. Not to make claims about "better way of living" or anything like that.

Another point which I wanted to stress that state powers in nations that lacked advanced bureaucracy (China, Ottomans) really did not have any way to extract wealth from the land efficiently.

Yes, if an army parked nearby they likely foraged the nearby areas. But an army is a very localized thing. There was no concept of "nation wide war economy". The extraction caused by the army was localized around the army.

So when we think about state induced horrors of the 20th century which were enabled by sophisticated bureaucracy and monoculture as anything else, those things did not really exist in medieval europe.

You really did not want a king to park his army in your backyard, that's for sure.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#42

Post by Cerium » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

locallost wrote: post #10

Where I live in Germany, small traditional butchers and bakers etc. are also closing down, but not for the lack of customers. They get too old, and nobody wants to take over. About 8 or so years ago, a baker closed at the city center, replaced by a chain, and a friend lamented how traditional bakers can't keep up with the chains that basically put frozen products in the oven. Her father laughed and said the place was…

In San Jose there used to be a traditional tofu shop in Japantown. It was a small old shop. You walk inside and see the tofu making equipment behind a counter with the cash box. On the side was a handwritten chart: 1 tofu, $2, 2 tofu, $4, 3 tofu, $6 etc. They also sold ginger (tofu's #1 friend) and a couple random items.

It was my favorite shop in the city, I used to ride my bike there and buy some fresh tofu. The owner would scold me about buying my green onions at Nijiya "A dollar seventy for a green onion! Daylight robbery!".

A year or two ago they closed. The owners (an elderly couple) decided to retire, and their children neither wanted to run a tofu shop nor would they let them. It is hard work. I miss the shop though, truly the best tofu I have ever eaten.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#43

Post by thrwyoilarticle » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

fxj wrote: post #14

jansan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once talked to a farmer south of Munich who claimed to have documents showing that his farm belonged to his family since the early 12th century. Society must have been really stable there for a long time. Also, he told me that he is very unhappy with high land prices around Munich. He could be a multi-millionaire immediately by selling his land, but his familiy tradition does not allow this. Due to the high land pr…

Japan has the most stable environment for companies. In the list of the oldest 5 worldwide the japanese companies were founded in 578 until 771 AD, which makes them more than 1400 years old! According to a report published by the Bank of Korea in 2008 that looked at 41 countries, there were 5,586 companies older than 200 years. 3,146 (56%) are in Japan 837 (15%) in Germany 222 (4%) in the Netherlands 196 (3%) in Fran…

I wonder if this is because of mixed, pedestrian-friendly zoning. In the UK it's equal effort to drive to a supermarket as it is to walk to a 'local' shop.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#44

Post by throwaway0a5e » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 3:40 PM UTC

avest wrote: post #25

There's a butcher fairly close to where I live that's been open since 1760 and there's often a line out the door on weekends etc. I love going there as if you ask where the meat is from, they'll give you directions to their fields up the road! If that's not the best way to determine animal welfare then I don't know what is. https://www.fconisbee.com/

The meat is just the transport mechanism. They're selling the known chain of custody and novelty that comes with it being local. The product they're imparting it on just happens to be meat.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing. It's a perfectly valid thing to sell and there's clearly a market for it but it is a luxury good and the viability of such businesses are fundamentally dependent on the amount of discretionary income sloshing around the local economy. That kind of business might make a killing outside NYC but could be struggling to keep the lights on in a suburb of Buffalo.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#45

Post by throwaway0a5e » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

locallost wrote: post #10

Where I live in Germany, small traditional butchers and bakers etc. are also closing down, but not for the lack of customers. They get too old, and nobody wants to take over. About 8 or so years ago, a baker closed at the city center, replaced by a chain, and a friend lamented how traditional bakers can't keep up with the chains that basically put frozen products in the oven. Her father laughed and said the place was…

>Where I live in Germany, small traditional butchers and bakers etc. are also closing down, but not for the lack of customers. They get too old, and nobody wants to take over.

Their kids don't want to take over because those peoples kids have better career opportunities that were not available to their parents. Third parties don't want to buy the businesses because it's not as lucrative as it once was.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#46

Post by kingofspain » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 3:51 PM UTC

nickt wrote: post #4

Balson’s butchers (in the UK and US) are about to have their 505th birthday. Their back bacon and bangers are the best I’ve found in the US. https://www.balsonbutchers.com/

I'm in Bridport all the time and I've still never been so I think I'll stop by there next week.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#47

Post by lqet » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 3:51 PM UTC

locallost wrote: post #10

Where I live in Germany, small traditional butchers and bakers etc. are also closing down, but not for the lack of customers. They get too old, and nobody wants to take over. About 8 or so years ago, a baker closed at the city center, replaced by a chain, and a friend lamented how traditional bakers can't keep up with the chains that basically put frozen products in the oven. Her father laughed and said the place was…

This is not only a problem with bakeries or butchers (I also know of two shops here and in my home village who closed down not because business was bad, but because it was so good they retired in their mid-fifties - and nobody wanted to take over). Old restaurants and pubs have the same problem.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#48

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 3:54 PM UTC

dmurray wrote: post #26

locallost wrote: post #10

Where I live in Germany, small traditional butchers and bakers etc. are also closing down, but not for the lack of customers. They get too old, and nobody wants to take over. About 8 or so years ago, a baker closed at the city center, replaced by a chain, and a friend lamented how traditional bakers can't keep up with the chains that basically put frozen products in the oven. Her father laughed and said the place was…

Often the people who are willing to work long hours and lack formal qualifications are immigrants. Maybe there are not enough immigrants in your town? Or they would have needed to start as apprentices 5 years ago, and it's hard for them to get into the apprentice system?

[deleted]

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#49

Post by 2trill2spill » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #30

dmurray wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often the people who are willing to work long hours and lack formal qualifications are immigrants. Maybe there are not enough immigrants in your town? Or they would have needed to start as apprentices 5 years ago, and it's hard for them to get into the apprentice system?

You need to have what's called "Meisterbrief" to run a bakery. That's the equivalent of having studied. You need 3 years of apprenticeship, then you make what's called "Gesellenprüfung", then you need to work at least 2 years in a bakery and then you need to go back to school for two years. That's quite some effort and it's not lacking formal qualifications. Also, running a bakery is a fairly capital-heavy investment…

From my perspective that seems heavily over regulated. As long as the bread is made in a sanitary fashion and doesn't make people sick, why should a baker be expected to go through so much training/schooling?

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#50

Post by Xylakant » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

2trill2spill wrote: post #49

Xylakant wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to have what's called "Meisterbrief" to run a bakery. That's the equivalent of having studied. You need 3 years of apprenticeship, then you make what's called "Gesellenprüfung", then you need to work at least 2 years in a bakery and then you need to go back to school for two years. That's quite some effort and it's not lacking formal qualifications. Also, running a bakery is a fairly capital-heavy investment…

From my perspective that seems heavily over regulated. As long as the bread is made in a sanitary fashion and doesn't make people sick, why should a baker be expected to go through so much training/schooling?

Meisterschule does not primarily teach you how to make bread. That’s the part before. It also teaches you how to educate new apprentices, how to run a business, etc. Maybe it’s over regulated, but on the other hand, we require solid education for a lot of professions. As long as the bridge doesn’t collapse, why should we expect an engineer to go through that much education? It’s only math and textbooks are freely available. As long as the patient survives, why do we require that doctors pass a certain education? It’s only biology and you can google most of it anyways.