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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#41

Post by pdamoc »

ccleve wrote: post #25

Lovely. A psychological study on how to manipulate people into supporting your social agenda. How about using, you know, reason? Treating them like adults? Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision?

We are more animal than human. In other words, our emotional brain is far larger and far faster than the neocortex.

There are far fewer "adults" than you might think.

As one spiritual master said: "Most people tell you they want to get out of kindergarten, but don’t believe them. Don’t believe them! All they want you to do is to mend their broken toys. “Give me back my wife. Give me back my job. Give me back my money. Give me back my reputation, my success.” This is what they want; they want their toys replaced. That’s all. Even the best psychologist will tell you that, that people don’t really want to be cured. What they want is relief; a cure is painful."

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#42

Post by kelnos »

Barrin92 wrote: post #8

"The potential of positive self-directed emotions has largely not been embraced by activists. The worry could be that it might make those engaging in the cause appear self-satisfied or selfish. But these studies suggest that, instead of focusing on ‘doom and gloom’ messaging that zooms in on people’s shortcomings and risks alienating them, policymakers and strategists might find that positive messaging, speaking to p…

> I think negative, external reinforcement has a much stronger real-world case. One only needs to look at the behaviour in countries like China or Japan, where guilt and social punishment has been used as a tool for probably thousands of years, with actual results. Singapore's a place that is well known for getting people to do the right thing, I'm not sure they managed to do it with pats on the back.

I think negative reinforcement can work to get people to stop doing things. If you get people to associate feelings of shame or fear with doing things you don't want them to do, then they'll stop. If all you want is obedience, and you're working in a culture where reputation and avoiding shame is a big deal, this can work well.

But if you want more than obedience, if you want people to actually agree with what you're saying, and do (or don't do) things because they truly believe those things are good (or bad), then shame and fear probably won't get you far.

> And to pick up the examples from the article, environmentally-friendly behaviour, haven't we seen real results after we began, often with aggressive campaigns, how ruining the environment is both wasteful and harmful, having turned symbols of excess into symbols of shame?

Sure, and my opinion, at least in the US, is that it hasn't been anywhere near as effective as we need it to be. There are a lot of people here who just don't care about recycling or reducing waste, and many who don't even believe that burning fossil fuels is changing our climate.

Yes, we do have a lot of people who are genuinely trying to do the right thing. Some of that is due to fear of what will happen to them if they don't (which isn't ideal). In some places you can get fined for putting recyclable items in the trash bin; I expect many of the people who mainly recycle because they don't want a fine would likely just stop recycling if the threat of fines went away.

Others actually do believe in the cause of environmental protection, and believe that we need to take care of our planet for future generations; that's a positive-reinforcement outcome, though admittedly an uncertain-future one. Saving money on renewables (when that's possible) is a great positive that makes people feel like going that route is the right thing. I even remember in years past people considering reusable grocery bags as a sort of status symbol, as petty as that may seem.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#43

Post by kelnos »

aaron695 wrote: post #11
Barrin92 wrote: post #8

"The potential of positive self-directed emotions has largely not been embraced by activists. The worry could be that it might make those engaging in the cause appear self-satisfied or selfish. But these studies suggest that, instead of focusing on ‘doom and gloom’ messaging that zooms in on people’s shortcomings and risks alienating them, policymakers and strategists might find that positive messaging, speaking to p…

What about health fads. Eating all meat is great for you. You'll feel better. They seem pretty successful. Church and religion, I would say mostly works on positivity. The argument would be these campaigns degrade to negativity. This certainly seems like it's playing out. Movement X goes more extreme. The internal members chose negativity over positivity. The stereotype of the Chinese is they will work towards a comm…

> Church and religion, I would say mostly works on positivity.

Depends on the religion, I guess. I was raised Catholic, and a lot of it was about making people fell guilty about their sins and telling them if they keep doing bad things and don't repent, they'll spend an eternity in hell.

Not exactly positive, IMO. Sure, there was always mention of how if you're a good, Christ-believing person, you'll get eternal rewards, but that always felt like a relative afterthought to me.

> The stereotype of the Chinese is they will work towards a common goal but leave a traffic accident victim on the street.

It's funny that you mention that; just today a friend in San Diego saw a car accident out his window (driver was unconscious after crashing into a parked car). He ran downstairs to see if the guy needed help, and saw four people standing there, gawking, taking pictures and video. He asked if anyone had called 911, and no one had.

I guess that's not exactly the same as ignoring an accident victim, but it's just as bad, if not worse.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#45

Post by peterpeppers »

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

Interesting point.

Martin Luther King Jr spoke quite a bit about addressing GUILT before he was killed.

Unfortunately for all of us, he was incredibly unpopular before his death due to his position on the Vietnam War so his message on guilt is lost to transcripts.

QUOTE: "The Negro needs the white man to save him from his fears, the white man needs the Negro to save him from his GUILT. We are tied together in so many ways, our language, our music, our cultural patterns, our material prosperity, and even our food are an amalgam of black and white."

SOLUTIONS FOR GUILT AND FEAR: Dr King mentioned in his speech that one can tackle guilt and fear through ACTION and COLLECTIVE EFFORT:

1. True integration - "Shared power, where black men and white men share power together, to build a new and a great nation"

2. White student generations of goodwill "who will stick with the cause of justice and the cause of civil rights and the cause of peace throughout the days ahead" The action of whites here tackles their guilt while providing hope and reducing fear for blacks.

3. "Coalitions of conscience"

4. Taking a long-view anchored in hope.

SOURCE: https://gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/mlk-gp-speech.pdf

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#46

Post by andi999 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #8

"The potential of positive self-directed emotions has largely not been embraced by activists. The worry could be that it might make those engaging in the cause appear self-satisfied or selfish. But these studies suggest that, instead of focusing on ‘doom and gloom’ messaging that zooms in on people’s shortcomings and risks alienating them, policymakers and strategists might find that positive messaging, speaking to p…

"I'm not sure they managed to do it with pats on the back." They did. It is on the lower back though: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#47

Post by klipt »

xdavidliu wrote: post #40
lern_too_spel wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably mean Dale Carnegie, author of How to Win Friends and Influence People, and not Andre Carnegie, steel magnate.

nit: you probably mean Andrew Carnegie, famous steel magnate, not Andre Carnegie, who isn't famous.

But he did star in "My Dinner with Andre Carnegie"

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#48

Post by Kednicma »

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

I agree that current protests are not "carefully crafted campaigns", but I think that that is largely due to the simplicity of the message: They want less police brutality and murders. The resulting system is not really set up to receive "sinners" or do any other quasi-religious things; it's merely a vehicle for conveying petitions for redress.

I remember being a young atheist; I thought that people believed in Christian and other hateful creeds because they were misled, miseducated, etc. Now that I'm a mature Pastafarian, I know that people believe in hateful creeds because people cannot divorce their identity from their beliefs and are not willing to risk their self-image merely for the sake of being more logical or historical, let alone more moral.

However, that's not why people are currently protesting; it's why people are counter-protesting, though.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#49

Post by aurelius12 »

beachy wrote: post #5
lern_too_spel wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably mean Dale Carnegie, author of How to Win Friends and Influence People, and not Andre Carnegie, steel magnate.

Indeed. Andrew Carnegie's missives were less noble, and more fitting of a steel magnate: "Immense power is acquired by assuring yourself in your secret reveries that you were born to control affairs."

Wow. I feel like I just read a line from some kind of James Bond comic book villain. I know he was serious, and that he's probably right, but still, wow!

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#50

Post by _y5hn »

peterpeppers wrote: post #45
aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

Interesting point. Martin Luther King Jr spoke quite a bit about addressing GUILT before he was killed. Unfortunately for all of us, he was incredibly unpopular before his death due to his position on the Vietnam War so his message on guilt is lost to transcripts. QUOTE: "The Negro needs the white man to save him from his fears, the white man needs the Negro to save him from his GUILT. We are tied together in so many…

People must be acknowledged as people. This requires deliberate practice to be able to embrace all people as people.
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