Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping • Hacker News Board

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#41

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:06 AM UTC

wenc wrote: post #10

I hate the idea of tipping. I tip generously. Both of these statements are simultaneously true. The vast majority of the countries in the world (that I've visited) do not believe in percentage based tipping as we do in North America [1]. A tip either involves rounding up to the nearest unit of currency, or takes the form of a small service fee added to the bill. In North America, we've arrived at a situation where wa…

The thing I don't understand that mandatory fixed service charges (in lieu of tips) are already standard for large groups in many if not most US restaurants, because negotiating tips and who pays what in this situation is even more complex.

Why is it so hard to just extend this existing, well accepted practice to smaller tables?

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#42

Post by tptacek » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:10 AM UTC

simonbarker87 wrote: post #34

tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

£10/hr sounds significantly lower than what a US server would make in a $$ restaurant (based on industry norms for diner/day/server), let alone a $$$ or a $$$$. If they're relying on that little cash, I'm definitely tipping next time I'm in the UK.

A good salary in the UK is any over £40,000 and not all service workers are paid the minimum. Minimum wage in the UK works out At £15k-20k per year so yeah, not a good salary but a lot better than the $3 an hour I’ve heard US restaurant workers get per hour. If you have to rely on the enforced generosity of customers so your staff can afford to live you don’t have a viable business in my opinion, and that seems to be…

No, servers in the US do not make $3/hr; they're required to make minimum wage and have a starting backstop wage (that's the $3 you hear about), and make as much more than minimum as their tips allow.

Of course, the US minimum wage is much too low to live on in most urban areas, so the minimum wage part is cold comfort. But servers in $$/$$$/$$$$ restaurants make substantially more than minimum wage in tips. By OpenTable's scale, a $$$ is ~$40/customer; a 4-top would be ~$32 in tips, a normal table is turned in 1.5 hours or so, and you serve multiple tables simultaneously. You can work out a rough range of outcomes in your head. Service staff come in an hour or so early and may stay a bit later to close out, and that brings the average down, as does sharing, splitting, or pooling, where that's allowed to happen, but it's still much higher than minimum wage.

Obviously, this applies to higher-end restaurants. But then, higher-end restaurants are where the "no tipping" movement is happening.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#43

Post by tptacek » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:15 AM UTC

Accacin wrote: post #36

tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

£10/hr sounds significantly lower than what a US server would make in a $$ restaurant (based on industry norms for diner/day/server), let alone a $$$ or a $$$$. If they're relying on that little cash, I'm definitely tipping next time I'm in the UK.

From what I've read, that's not true at all. I'd imagine a whole lot of waiters and waitresses are earning a lot less than you imagine. £10/hour seems more reasonable, but our minimum wage keeps going up and includes holidays, etc. and we do not need to pay health insurance either.

Oh, lots of servers are earning less than that, but in the UK, if there's no tipping norm, and people are generally paid a $14/hr minimum wage instead, then fine dining servers in the US are substantially out-earning those in the UK.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#44

Post by wenc » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:15 AM UTC

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #41

wenc wrote: post #10

I hate the idea of tipping. I tip generously. Both of these statements are simultaneously true. The vast majority of the countries in the world (that I've visited) do not believe in percentage based tipping as we do in North America [1]. A tip either involves rounding up to the nearest unit of currency, or takes the form of a small service fee added to the bill. In North America, we've arrived at a situation where wa…

The thing I don't understand that mandatory fixed service charges (in lieu of tips) are already standard for large groups in many if not most US restaurants, because negotiating tips and who pays what in this situation is even more complex. Why is it so hard to just extend this existing, well accepted practice to smaller tables?

I think it's cultural. Minnesota is doing it though.

https://www.minnesotamonthly.com/food-drink/new-restaurant-s...

The other issue is US consumers get confused and don't know what to do. The difference between a tip, a surcharge, and a service fee is so subtle that it's a mess to keep up with.

https://laist.com/2019/08/26/restaurant_surcharge_tip_los_an...

I think for this to work, it needs to be established as a new widespread social norm. Otherwise the confusion actually increases the friction of dining out (well pre-covid), and restaurants lose. It takes brave restaurants to risk being a casualty of confusion. A good number of restaurants might need to be sacrificed.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#45

Post by petre » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:22 AM UTC

wenc wrote: post #31

Smoosh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a single Federal Goods and Services Tax (GST) as in Australia, you know it is 10%. All prices include the GST and are the price you will pay. There are no other sales taxes . Everyone knows what the government's cut is. Everyone knows how much they are actually paying. I can't see why anyone would want a more complicated system. Clarification: Many "essential" goods like simple foods are GST exempt. They will be…

Is it 10% in all states? In Canada, the provincial sales tax differs in each province. The federal rate is 5%. Alberta has no sales tax, whereas Ontario charges 8% (post-harmonization it's a HST of 13%). In the US, the sales tax differs not only by state, but by county and city. The tax situation in Chicago is particularly bizarre. The sales tax in Cook County, where the city of Chicago located, is 10.25%. The sales…

I wonder why does harmonization always infer a higher tax than the previous one. If we'd had harmonized VAT in Europe I guess it would be like over 20% and those with 19% or lower would end up paying more.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#46

Post by simonbarker87 » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:28 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #42

simonbarker87 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good salary in the UK is any over £40,000 and not all service workers are paid the minimum. Minimum wage in the UK works out At £15k-20k per year so yeah, not a good salary but a lot better than the $3 an hour I’ve heard US restaurant workers get per hour. If you have to rely on the enforced generosity of customers so your staff can afford to live you don’t have a viable business in my opinion, and that seems to be…

No, servers in the US do not make $3/hr; they're required to make minimum wage and have a starting backstop wage (that's the $3 you hear about), and make as much more than minimum as their tips allow. Of course, the US minimum wage is much too low to live on in most urban areas, so the minimum wage part is cold comfort. But servers in $$/$$$/$$$$ restaurants make substantially more than minimum wage in tips. By OpenT…

Yes I’ve heard this argument before as well and understand that’s why tipping is still pervasive however most restaurants aren’t $$$+ meaning most service workers don’t earn this amount and it still requires customers to pay more at their own “choosing” for the staff to have a liveable income.

I was once chased out of a restaurant in New York and forced to tip 10% after they got both our orders wrong, what they did eventually serve us was cold, the staff were very rude (apparently he couldn’t understand our accent - I’m from the UK south and basically have zero accent) and the toilets hadn’t been cleaned in what looked like forever. Yet apparently I still had to tip or he would called the police. This place was rated as $$$.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#47

Post by petre » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:29 AM UTC

untog wrote: post #20

smnrchrds wrote: post #2

No, they did not. It is more accurate to say two restaurants in Toronto just mandated 18% tipping: > Tips will still be split between front and back but Ten will now be "adding a flat untaxed 18 per cent service charge onto each bill no matter the size of the group," The more sensible thing would have been to increase menu prices by 18%. But they are not being sensible. They just increased their prices while pretendi…

> The more sensible thing would have been to increase menu prices by 18%. That would not be sensible because when people are comparing restaurants they will appear 18% more expensive than an identically priced competition when they aren’t. > I hate it when you have to treat a menu like a legal document I don’t know why you’d need to. I’ve travelled in Europe plenty, where restaurants charge a service charge. It’s rig…

> It’s right there in the receipt

That's the main issue with it. It should be on the menu, on every page that contains prices. Once it's (only) on the receipt it's too late to pick another restaurant. In Europe they're required by law to list it.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#48

Post by itsjloh » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:47 AM UTC

wenc wrote: post #31

Smoosh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a single Federal Goods and Services Tax (GST) as in Australia, you know it is 10%. All prices include the GST and are the price you will pay. There are no other sales taxes . Everyone knows what the government's cut is. Everyone knows how much they are actually paying. I can't see why anyone would want a more complicated system. Clarification: Many "essential" goods like simple foods are GST exempt. They will be…

Is it 10% in all states? In Canada, the provincial sales tax differs in each province. The federal rate is 5%. Alberta has no sales tax, whereas Ontario charges 8% (post-harmonization it's a HST of 13%). In the US, the sales tax differs not only by state, but by county and city. The tax situation in Chicago is particularly bizarre. The sales tax in Cook County, where the city of Chicago located, is 10.25%. The sales…

The 10% tax is at the federal layer in Australia and is the same across all states and territories.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#49

Post by wenc » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:58 AM UTC

petre wrote: post #45

wenc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it 10% in all states? In Canada, the provincial sales tax differs in each province. The federal rate is 5%. Alberta has no sales tax, whereas Ontario charges 8% (post-harmonization it's a HST of 13%). In the US, the sales tax differs not only by state, but by county and city. The tax situation in Chicago is particularly bizarre. The sales tax in Cook County, where the city of Chicago located, is 10.25%. The sales…

I wonder why does harmonization always infer a higher tax than the previous one. If we'd had harmonized VAT in Europe I guess it would be like over 20% and those with 19% or lower would end up paying more.

The harmonization in Ontario is more like combining the 5% federal rate and the 8% provincial rate into a single combined rate of 13%, so there’s no change in this case.

Re: Two more restaurants in Toronto just got rid of tipping

#50

Post by moltar » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 6:05 AM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #2

No, they did not. It is more accurate to say two restaurants in Toronto just mandated 18% tipping: > Tips will still be split between front and back but Ten will now be "adding a flat untaxed 18 per cent service charge onto each bill no matter the size of the group," The more sensible thing would have been to increase menu prices by 18%. But they are not being sensible. They just increased their prices while pretendi…

That restaurant would def go on to a mental ban list. I hate when they do that. It’s like an extra sales tax. I want the total number, after all of the fees.

A true place I know that banned tipping is Crew Collective Cafe in Montreal.

It’s the same group that started crew.co and Unsplash.