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Google’s top search result is Google

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Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#41
post #5

I know there's the sentiment of fear/hate/etc about Google taking over but... 1) Doesn't it make sense for them to do that? After offering the search engine for free for ages (not that paid search engines are a thing) and playing an important role in building the internet? For most, all the internet they know is thanks to Google 2) Wouldn't you do the same? Keep in mind they're a public company and we know how incent…

> Doesn't it make sense for them to do that? After offering the search engine for free for ages

Absolutely not. They offered the search engine for free so that advertisers could have a huge platform. Same with Facebook offering its social media platform "for free." It's about the users/eye balls/etc.

Also they've made billions upon billions of dollars in profit from it - how much more do they "deserve" - especially when they are starting to act monopolistic/anti-competitive/stealing competitor IP, ideas, etc

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#42
post #10

Tricky. It does feel anti-competitive but at the same time their info is usually also the best. So a strong argument can be made that it’s 1 based on merit

Everything's "based on merit" until merit doesn't line up with the company's interests anymore.

I use google translate and maps and images all the time, so them showing up at the top of the results page isn't inconvenient for me, but sometimes when I use them I get results that are actively bad and I have to go seek out other services. There are probably many cases where I get bad results and am not informed enough to recognize that the results were bad!

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#43
post #5

I know there's the sentiment of fear/hate/etc about Google taking over but... 1) Doesn't it make sense for them to do that? After offering the search engine for free for ages (not that paid search engines are a thing) and playing an important role in building the internet? For most, all the internet they know is thanks to Google 2) Wouldn't you do the same? Keep in mind they're a public company and we know how incent…

Yeah it makes sense, however I don't think we should be grateful* that Google played an important role in building the internet, since for Google it is about control and that's where the problems begin. *not that this was your point

Google didn't exist for the first decade of the web. When they came along, their innovation was minor and incremental: slightly more accurate search without paid results (funny how things change).

They then did a version of Hotmail with a worse GUI, but virtually limitless disk space.

Google just poaches talent away from more deserving companies, and puts it to work making their products a little worse every year than they were the year before. I'm not thankful for Google. I'm sad because they stifle progress.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#44
post #17

Not really though. My top search result on most topics is usually Wikipedia. Maybe if you're searching for Google you find Google.

FTA > How a search for “Linux” has changed. In 2000, Google only returned “organic” results, ads, and a category header. Now the top of the page is full of Google products and “answers.” Source: 2000 screenshot/Archive.org 2000 screenshot: https://mrkp-static-production.themarkup.org/graphics/google... 2020 screenshot: https://mrkp-static-production.themarkup.org/graphics/google...

I find Linux.org and Wikipedia. I must be in a helpful search bubble for people who want actual information instead of ads and news.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#45
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I will get mad when those products have better alternatives but it's not the case. Build better alternatives and I'm on board." How will you find out about the better alternatives? Are you certain there aren't good alternatives to translate, maps, flights, shopping etc? For any language? I know for a fact that google translate is bad for some ideographic languages and as a result there are competing services that co…

Someone will mention better alternatives here, after all I've been hearing about how ddg blows Google out of the water a couple times every week here for years.

Generally speaking, HN posters are not the people who are going to be harmed by anti-competitive behavior or Google filling the first screen of results with their own products. It's ordinary people who use the web.

You could probably argue that ordinary people don't care about quality and they're best served by using the vertically-integrated Google product, though...

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#46
post #5

I know there's the sentiment of fear/hate/etc about Google taking over but... 1) Doesn't it make sense for them to do that? After offering the search engine for free for ages (not that paid search engines are a thing) and playing an important role in building the internet? For most, all the internet they know is thanks to Google 2) Wouldn't you do the same? Keep in mind they're a public company and we know how incent…

I think it is just nostalgia for when the Internet was still young and interesting. Google made it easier and much faster to get to good, useful content. Now, it is just a mess. SEO/SEM folks beat Google. Now, no matter what you search, you either get content directly from Google or one of the thousands (maybe millions?) of content farms hoping to scrape a few pennies from your search.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#47

Search is essential infrastructure for the internet and should not be monopolized. It should be free, uncluttered, distributed and transparent. The problem is not Google, its the lack of good alternatives, only DDG really.

> Search is essential infrastructure for the internet

Agree 100%

> and should not be monopolized

There's an argument to be made that search is a case of natural monopoly. Today, google's success doesn't stem from PageRank. It's stems from Learning to Rank algorithms. Every time you click a hit, Google learns something. If you started distributing search traffic amongst a competitive market, no one provider would get the same training data Google gets today. The more competitive the market, the thinner each competitor's training data is - and consequently, the worse their product will be. To illustrate, think about how much better google is than DDG/Bing, and then how much better DDG/Bing is than whatever is third. (Apparently the third best is sufficiently bad that neither you nor I know what it is.)

Since Google is A) pretty far ahead of everyone else in this space and B) extremely secretive about search, it's really difficult to discern how much of their success comes from "more data" and how much comes from "better algos."

> The problem is not Google, its the lack of good alternatives, only DDG really.

My understanding is that a lot of DDG's value comes from using Bing. It's not a pure re-skin, but it aggregates results from multiple search engines and Bing is the biggest. (I'm not a DDG expert so please correct me if I'm getting it wrong here.)

The problem is that Bing is good for the same reasons as Google: they are the second biggest in a winner-takes-most market. They get lots of data (though not enough to be as good as Google), and presumably do all the same things for which people dislike Google.

So in short, maybe regulation is a more realistic goal than competition? I don't actually know where I stand here. I'm sure their are people here who disagree fiercely with everything I'm suggesting. I'd be grateful to hear their counterarguments.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#48

> A trending search in our data for “myocardial infarction” shows how Google has piled up its products at the top. It returned: - Google’s dictionary definition. - A “people also ask” box that expanded to answer related questions without leaving the search results page. - A “knowledge panel,” which is an abridged encyclopedia entry with various links. - And a “related conditions” carousel leading to various new Googl…

> This example is not Google advertising itself so much as Google changing the features of the search engine itself.

What it is an example of in my view is Google increasingly attemnpting to keep you on its site by scraping the information from other sites and displaying it.

Originally Google scraped the sites solely to build a better search index.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#49

> A trending search in our data for “myocardial infarction” shows how Google has piled up its products at the top. It returned: - Google’s dictionary definition. - A “people also ask” box that expanded to answer related questions without leaving the search results page. - A “knowledge panel,” which is an abridged encyclopedia entry with various links. - And a “related conditions” carousel leading to various new Googl…

The definition of "search" or what it means to type something into the google search input field has changed over time, and that's probably the root of this.

It used to mean "show me web pages related to this input string", and some of those search results were sponsored (ads). Now it's interpreted more as "inform me about this input string" or "please help me with this", like a Siri or Google Assistant (though not necessarily in natural language).

When you view it as a "please assist me" query it makes sense to introduce things like answerboxes, related queries, embedded images or translations, etc. But that is VERY MUCH not "search" anymore.

It's quite possible that most people using a search engine actually want an Assistant, so google's new behavior is ideal for them. But where do you go when you actually want a search engine? You see people complain that over time Google has become worse as a search engine - using it to search for programming topics is definitely worse than it used to be, and its search results in general are often full of astroturfed pinterest or stackoverflow pages.

Re: Google’s top search result is Google

#50

Search is essential infrastructure for the internet and should not be monopolized. It should be free, uncluttered, distributed and transparent. The problem is not Google, its the lack of good alternatives, only DDG really.

Im guessing the alternatives get better the more you use them. Otherwise there are a lot of alternatives like : Bing Duck Duck Go ( as you mentioned ) Startpage Yandex

an image search for 'lemon party' is a good test.
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