Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet • Hacker News Board

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#41

Post by ardy42 » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #28

nabla9 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of those ships have crews that are part of the People’s Armed Forces Maritime Militia (PAFMM). The militia are organized and commanded directly by the PLA's local military commands. They don't normally carry weapons, but they have military communications equipment and readiness to support PLA Navy. https://www.andrewerickson.com/2016/03/chinas-maritime-milit...

>They don't normally carry weapons, but they have military communications equipment and readiness to support PLA Navy. How are they supposed to support the PLA navy if all they have is a boat with some military radios? The only thing I can think of is cannon fodder or search and rescue.

> How are they supposed to support the PLA navy if all they have is a boat with some military radios? The only thing I can think of is cannon fodder or search and rescue.

The OP gives an example:

> In the South China Sea, the Spratly Islands have attracted most attention as the Chinese government has built artificial islands on reefs and shoals in these waters, militarizing them with aircraft strips, harbours and radar facilities. Chinese fishing boats bolster the effort by swarming the zone, intimidating potential competitors, as they did in 2018, suddenly dispatching more than 90 fishing ships to drop anchor within several miles of Philippines-held Thitu Island, immediately after Manila began modest upgrades on the island's infrastructure.

Other obvious uses are espionage, observation, and covert transportation.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#42

Post by dependenttypes » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #3

sradman wrote: post #2

China and North Korea appear to have a side-deal for fishing rights which violates U.N. economic sanctions against North Korea.

I think UN should have a vote about it to decide on the panelty. Oh wait, it was veto'ed again. UN like a League of Nations is rather a sad joke (well, apart from peace keeping missions).

> well, apart from peace keeping missions

Which were responsible for the Haiti cholera outbreak as well as its cover-up. The UN is worse than useless.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#43

Post by dependenttypes » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

peroporque wrote: post #15

me_me_me wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think UN should have a vote about it to decide on the panelty. Oh wait, it was veto'ed again. UN like a League of Nations is rather a sad joke (well, apart from peace keeping missions).

If you favor war over dialog, then your opinion would be understandable. Thankfully, most people don't. So it's a good thing the UN exists. It's a forum of dialog, not a parliament to make laws.

It's not as if you can't do dialog without the UN.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#44

Post by dirtyid » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

>Critics also accuse China of keeping high-quality squid for domestic consumption, exporting lower-quality products at higher prices.

Always thought I tasted a difference. This explains a lot.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#45

Post by supernova87a » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 6:21 PM UTC

vbtemp wrote: post #7

I know this article is about the waters off Korea, but I noticed a similar thing flying over the South China Sea, in particular the Tokyo-Bangkok route. Flying late at night over the SCS, and then peering out the window from 40k ft, you see endless lights - thousands and thousands of them. At first I thought I was over land, but then checked the map. The next trip I noticed the same thing, and then the same. It was l…

Depending on where you were it might be the Japanese fishing fleet as well.

At night, the footprint of the Japanese fishing fleet in lights can expand the apparent size of the Japanese islands by what seems like double the area.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#46

Post by ethbro » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

kohtatsu wrote: post #16

ethbro wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. Last "nuclear war" was on 9 August 1945. UN formed on 24 October 1945. > Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. Yes, it does. If they have large militaries and/or economies. > The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vo…

Are you not aware of what's going on in Xinjiang? (Or Tibet or to practitioners of Falun Gong or even christianity in China) From the first article of the first charter: > 2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace; > 3. To achieve international co-operation in…

You see how that language was carefully crafted with "develop" and "promote" / "encourage", vs the "maintain" and "take" in Article 1.1 and portions dealing with peace?

The UN exists to prevent war between great powers. All else is subordinate to that goal.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#47

Post by qchris » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

If you haven't read the book written by the NYTimes journalist Ian Urbina that much of the original research this article refers to, I highly, highly recommend it [1]. Not only is it illuminating, but the writing and stories within it are extremely compelling on a human level as well. I got a copy of it over the holidays, and literally experienced the trope of having a hard time putting it down.

[1] https://www.theoutlawocean.com/the-outlaw-ocean/

Edited to include author name

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#48

Post by generatorguy » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 7:13 PM UTC

A fisherman I was speaking to in NZ noted on their ships radar lines of trawlers just outside NZ waters presumably doing the same thing - dragging nets between the trawlers and indiscriminately taking everything - or bottom trawling and mowing the sea floor flat and void of life. It is the tragedy of the commons that we can't manage this shared renewable resource. Canada has destroyed their Atlantic fisheries. If they can't manage not to take every fish in the ocean I'm not surprised the rest of the world can't resist it either.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#49

Post by brnt » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

dependenttypes wrote: post #43

peroporque wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you favor war over dialog, then your opinion would be understandable. Thankfully, most people don't. So it's a good thing the UN exists. It's a forum of dialog, not a parliament to make laws.

It's not as if you can't do dialog without the UN.

And the US could be free without the Union, but it makes it an afwul lot easier regardless.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#50

Post by mezentius » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #37

valuearb wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean a bad peace like 1939?

I'm thinking more like the bad peace of 1963, 1979, 2001, 2003, 2011, 2011 (again), need I go on?

Yes, but valuearb makes a good point— it is not always true that a bad peace is better than a good war. There are moments when timely, preemptive military intervention can avoid a more destructive conflict. (The problem is, of course, that those moments are often only obvious to us in historical retrospect.)