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Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

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Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#41

Post by gruez »

mtgp1000 wrote: post #20
xxpor wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if I agree with your assessment, none of this excuses using unmarked vehicles, unmarked uniforms and not explaining themselves.

At some point people become enough of a liability that we collectively as a society have authorized the restriction of their rights. This is a literally subversive movement. I'm not exaggerating or choosing a side. Watch the livestreams yourself - these people explicitly seek to subvert, dismantle, and replace modern "power structures" (intentionally left vague). Whether you agree with what these people think they're…

>At some point people become enough of a liability that we collectively as a society have authorized the restriction of their rights.

So tyranny of the majority is fine? I'm sure you can apply the same justification to what's happening in Xinjiang. Also, where's this "authorization" stemming from? Did we explicitly authorize it? Or was it implied by our inaction?

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#42

Post by growlix »

dfraser992 wrote: post #38
fzeroracer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of what you said matters and here's why. It doesn't matter who they're arresting and for what reason. They should announce who they are, using marked vehicles and properly arrest them if they have actually committed a crime. Because otherwise, what's stopping someone from dressing up in military garb and straight up abducting someone? How do you know they're even part of the federal law enforcement and not actua…

Exactly. If the "authorities" had any integrity, they'd be following the "process" and that would give them at least a fig leaf of legitimacy. Not sure why you're getting downvoted, but looking at these growing comments, I think there is a brigade going on to influence the discussion.

Yup. Post got flagged too. I assume because it's "political", but in my experience HN is very interested in civil liberties.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#43

Post by fzeroracer »

This is straight up fascistic. Regardless of your opinions of the protesters or if they committed a crime, the feds should never do this, full stop. The feds making a proper arrest should announce who they are, who they're with and why they're making the arrest. The reason being that you have no clue if they actually are the feds or not. They could just be some jackoffs wearing cosplay looking to cause trouble and this gives them explicit cover in addition to being overt violations of someone's rights.

If you're one of the pro-freedom people here on HN, how could you ever rationalize this sort of thing? In what world is it ever OK for the feds to do this sort of thing? This is something both the left and the right should be able to fully agree on!

I'm incredibly disappointed this got flagged, but not surprised. It is somewhat ironic though, since on HN any threads about perceived censorship gets massive amounts of votes such as when Twitter added the disclaimer to Trump's tweets. But then you have someone quite literally being abducted without cause and here come the flags and the 'it's too political' signs coming out.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#44

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

dfraser992 wrote: post #31

Reddit was all over that video the other day. The general consensus was that it looked more like an extraction of an undercover operative (dressed all in black! with only the eyes visible!). That seems plausible to me because of how cooperative the guy in black is, the efficiency of the whole thing, the fact that none of the other people in the area/video seemed to know who the guy was (they had to ask him his name,…

I hasn’t heard of Sir Robert Peel before, thanks.

Though I was aware of the general concept of policing by consent.

Here’s the Wikipedia entry on Peelian principales of policing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

The Peelian principles summarise the ideas that Sir Robert Peel developed to define an ethical police force. The approach expressed in these principles is commonly known as policing by consent in the United Kingdom and other countries such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

In this model of policing, police officers are regarded as citizens in uniform. They exercise their powers to police their fellow citizens with the implicit consent of those fellow citizens. "Policing by consent" indicates that the legitimacy of policing in the eyes of the public is based upon a general consensus of support that follows from transparency about their powers, their integrity in exercising those powers and their accountability for doing so.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#45

Post by blisseyGo »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #33
blisseyGo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all protestors as rioters That's not what I meant when I said: rioters (not the protestors) I meant to say that a few violent people are sneaking into the protestors. By "not the protestors", I meant "I am not referring to the protestors". By local government, I meant the mayor, the governor and the DA. Portland, Chicago has been this way for a long time.

You still haven’t responded to the strongest part of the argument here: I’m what ways do you believe any of this justifies kidnapping people?

Kidnapping? Really?

The officers have POLICE on their chest in big letters. People getting arrested have helmets, bats and window breaking tools on. They aren't "protestors". They are preventing peaceful protestors.

Also there's some claims of some of them being undercover agents who have infiltrated Antifa though I am not sure if that can be confirmed.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#46

Post by blisseyGo »

mindslight wrote: post #37
blisseyGo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one example where the dude who got arrested has a helmet on. Why's that needed in peaceful protests? Also note the thing he has on his left side. That's an attachment to break car windows: https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1283452585945583618

Uh, the thugs doing the kidnapping also have helmets on so that indicates nothing whatsoever. And the only "thing" I can see looks like a regular carabiner.

thugs? They have "POLICE" on their chest.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#47

Post by cinquemb »

mindslight wrote: post #8
gav wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one such encounter: https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1283452585945583618 What rights do you have resisting being grabbed from the street by somebody who isn't identifying themselves as law enforcement? They just have a "police" patch, they could be cosplayers.

You most certainly have the right to defend yourself with lethal force, but good luck practically asserting that right. About the only hope for that would be citizen militias organizing to defend society against these lawless criminals. This here should be a call for the libertarian-oriented red tribe to fight back against government tyranny. Either much of the red tribe needs to break free of their propaganda bubble…

One can be against the lockdowns in response to a public health emergency and against incidences like these…

Reminds me of my response to my wife in reaction to the State Dept "pleading" for americans to come back "home"… I'm strongly in the camp of things getting worse and worse because none of the underlying issues in modern american society have been adequately addressed for a long time.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#48

Post by blisseyGo »

gruez wrote: post #39
blisseyGo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one example where the dude who got arrested has a helmet on. Why's that needed in peaceful protests? Also note the thing he has on his left side. That's an attachment to break car windows: https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1283452585945583618

If we're going to continue the chain of speculation without providing additional evidence... > the dude who got arrested has a helmet on. Why's that needed in peaceful protests? Same reason why people wear helmets when riding a bike: even if they're not intending on smashing their head, accidents happen, so it's better to be protected. Protests do occasionally turn violent, so that's not too unreasonable. Also keep i…

You are being dishonest on purpose if you think wearing a helmet and dressed up as Antifa is peaceful protesting.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#49

Post by mindslight »

blisseyGo wrote: post #46
mindslight wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, the thugs doing the kidnapping also have helmets on so that indicates nothing whatsoever. And the only "thing" I can see looks like a regular carabiner.

thugs? They have "POLICE" on their chest.

So can anybody with two minutes and a clothes iron. Actual police announce themselves, state their intentions, follow deliberate procedures, create public reports, answer to bystanders, and generally work to uphold law and order with everybody else. Regardless of how they got the costumes, the aggressors in that video are violent criminals.

Re: Unidentified Federal Law Enforcement Detaining Protestors Without Explanation

#50

Post by mindslight »

cinquemb wrote: post #47
mindslight wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You most certainly have the right to defend yourself with lethal force, but good luck practically asserting that right. About the only hope for that would be citizen militias organizing to defend society against these lawless criminals. This here should be a call for the libertarian-oriented red tribe to fight back against government tyranny. Either much of the red tribe needs to break free of their propaganda bubble…

One can be against the lockdowns in response to a public health emergency and against incidences like these… Reminds me of my response to my wife in reaction to the State Dept "pleading" for americans to come back "home"… I'm strongly in the camp of things getting worse and worse because none of the underlying issues in modern american society have been adequately addressed for a long time.

I edited that bit out because it was invoking a generalized "other" that didn't need to be. Just by sheer numbers, surely some who were protesting at state capitols are also protesting unaccountable police and institutionalized racism.

More succinctly though, there are many people refusing to wear masks, claiming it is government control rather than reasonable common sense in their own best interest. Meanwhile this is actual tyranny that must be resisted if we are to retain our remaining freedoms.

For the general trend, I want to hope that we're seeing the darkness before the light, but my cynical side tells me that's just a coping mechanism.

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