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Be More Unlikeable

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Re: Be More Unlikeable

#41

Post by xxpor »

hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

My biggest problem with Musk is him being an asshole in areas that have absolutely nothing to do with his businesses. Like the Thai cave pedophile thing. Just cut that shit out. We can debate the value of being a jerk in business, but there's no reason to subject members of the public to it on a large scale.

Jobs was known for being an asshole outside of work too, but it was either on a small scale (driving without licence plates, or parking in handicap stalls), or within his family (relationship with his daughter).

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#42

Post by throwaheyy »

borplk wrote: post #28
hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

I think one important thing to note is being "unusual" is ONLY celebrated for wildly successful people. If you make it like Steve Jobs people will over-analyse everything you did and said and try to somehow link that to your success. If you are not wildly successful people just consider it a boring personal flaw and they will not tolerate your attitude.

“The distance between genius and insanity is measured by success”

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#43

Post by jariel »

hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

'Unlikable' and 'Asshole' are different things.

A lot of people are just cold, unsociable, not charismatic, don't buy into the latest social trend - and are therefore 'unlikable' to many.

It's possible to be 'perfectly good' and yet perceive as 'unlikable'.

Personally, I like those people, but the mob turns on them quickly.

Being needlessly callous, or mean, lording over people, excess egoism i.e. 'asshole' - this is unnecessary.

Being 'demanding' is not being an 'asshole'.

Firing people on the spot for missing this or that, is 'asshole'.

Emotionally, a lot of it can feel like the same thing, so it's confusing. And often people are a mix of both things, and are otherwise professionals, but let slip some emotional stuff now and again. The more demanding or terse a person is, the easier it is to cross the line into just being a jerk.

And it's not even necessary to be 'unlikable' either, but for 1/2 the population who tend to be 'people pleasers' maybe they need to learn that it's not just a popularity game, and the system would benefit from honest input.

My instinct says that Jobs and Musk are 10% nice, 80% terse, and 10% asshole.

Most of their actions seem to be on point, the kind of 'hard truth' actions that some people seem to admire in business types, but they can also be needless dks.

Some people are just plain callous jerks and actually have no business ability at all, and yet millions of people seem to believe their acting! Trying to think of an example ...

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#44

Post by santoshalper »

hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

I think the real common trait of successful people is a willingness to hold unpopular/anti-orthodox views, even in the face of scrutiny and criticism. Being a sociopath like Jobs probably makes it easier to do this, but is not necessary - you can be highly successful and avoid the traps of common wisdom while being kind and even pleasant.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#45

Post by mdszy »

"Some number of successful people were assholes, therefore in order to be successful you should be an asshole."

I cannot fathom how this logic even works.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#46

Post by jariel »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #4

I don't think the current social climate is conducive to this advice anymore. It was probably helpful in around 2008 to 2015. It's hard to think of a situation where being unlikable is an advantage, today. Even in situations pg likes to point out – for example, if you think for yourself, you often upset others – you can do that privately rather than publicly, and still get the same advantage. EDIT: there is one situa…

" easier to convince them with social aikido (or to let yourself be convinced), not assert dominance."

There is a much easier 3rd way, and that is for people to act like adults, realise they are not always going to get their way, in which case someone may have somewhat more legit authority and to let that decision happen without making it about ego.

If someone needs to have emotional aikido applied to them, they're not a professional.

If someone is constantly having to 'assert dominance' they're probably not a professional either.

Find a way to roughly agree and move on ... without any lingering karma.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#47

Post by pydry »

Taek wrote: post #11
hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

I think a big part of it is being stubborn about rejecting things that aren't good enough. Steve Jobs and Elon Musk both also have a reputation of perfectionism, and lots of stories of telling their employees to start over because they didn't hit the minimum requirements (or in Musk's case, just firing people outright over seemingly small things). Especially when one of your employees is pushing you hard for a featur…

Linus torvalds is a good example of this where the "asshole behavior" didn't spill over into the rest of his life.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#48

Post by darth_avocado »

> Actually it's more likely that popularity will prevent you from being successful.

What a load of BS. Maybe in some specific cases. But in almost all of corporate culture and politics, success is mostly a popularity contest. The more popular you are, the more likely you'll have people not p*g over your success.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#49

Post by bserge »

MrLeap wrote: post #2

It's 404ing for now, so maybe the contents actually defy the title when I finally will get to RTFA. I have to say, I'm amused by a lot of the contrarian articles showing up on HN recently. There seems to be a growing tendency to shed a lot of the saccharine optimism of the last decade. "Work on unimportant problems" "Be more unlikeable" "How to cope with " "Why you should kill your parents" I wonder if these are port…

> the saccharine optimism of the last decade

You and I must've hung out in completely different circles, including online :D

But yeah the media is like this because once some "trend" gets oversaturated, someone starts another one (or more likely, revives an old one) and soon everyone jumps on that ship. Actually, it applies to most things. Personally I can't wait for flat design to die out.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#50

Post by pydry »

BlahGod420 wrote: post #24
waheoo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, the other popular one is being contrarian. Its a dned epidemic at the moment, I find people arguing things for no other reason than to sound smart bt challenging, usually on a technicality, a really obvious assumption any normal person would take at face value.

Depending on the age of the persons involved, this could actually be healthy. When I first learned about logical fallacies I could not keep my mouth shut. Everyone was a moron and dag nabit I knew exactly why. After a few months of pissing everyone off, I settled down in to a "You can be wrong if you want," kind of mentality.

I wish some of this energy could be channeled into creating forum software that explicitly recognized and accounted for logical fallacies.

It would help clean up a lot of shit (same as comment voting). It's not a panacea (just as voting isn't) but it would help to be able to flag/confirm/reject logical fallacies in textual online arguments.

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