Live data from Hacker News

Soul Meets Body: An initial examination of the Samkhya school

worthypatterns.substack.com

41–44 of 44 posts

Re: Soul Meets Body: An initial examination of the Samkhya school

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no single set of basic tenets. There's a continuum of schools of philosophy within the umbrella term of Hinduism, ranging from materialist atheistic (Ajivika, Charvaka) to pantheistic with a non-sentient God (Advaita) to full blown theism (Dvaita and Vishistadwaita). You get to pick your poison.

I would not count Ajivika or Charvaka as within the ambit of Hinduism, and neither did the Ancient Commentators. Both were considered heresies. Indeed, Ajivika is better understood as a distinct dharmic religion. In addition, Advaita is not a "non-sentient God", but that's a separate discussion. For the sake of the parent question, it would make sense to restrict to the Astika schools. Basal to these schools was an a…

Although most of the Nastika (atheist) literature has been lost over the ages, some texts are still available (The Charvaka text Tattvopaplavasimha in particular, I have a copy of it) and there's no reason to discount their philosophical contributions. Their contributions are no less important than the contributions of the Astikas (the Theists). Also, let's not forget that Buddhism which was more successful abroad than it was in India is a Nastika faith. OTOH, you'd naturally argue that Buddhism isn't Hinduism.

* In addition, Advaita is not a "non-sentient God", but that's a separate discussion. *

One of the Advaitin Mahavakyas (Great sentence/quote) from Aitareya Upanishad is: "Prajnanam Brahma", which translates to: "Knowledge/Consciousness is God". One of the fundamental ontological dichotomies in Hinduism is the difference between "Chit" (things that are conscious) and "Achit" (things that are not conscious). Essentially, the distinction between sentient and non-sentient objects. Although consciousness is a trait of "chit" or sentient objects, consciousness itself is not sentient (that'd be a circular definition). We don't even have to go that far if you interpret it as knowledge, because knowledge by definition non-sentient. Extending from that, if God is consciousness and consciousness is non-sentient, then God is non-sentient.

I know that the Adviatins try very hard to paper over this philosophical wrinkle, but that's what drew me to their school of philosophy. A religion with a non-beneficent and non-sentient God is beyond cool, IMO. One of the taunts that Ramanuja (a Vishistadwaita philosopher) had for Advaitins was to call them "Prachanna Bouddhar" (Closet Buddhists). Because from his theistic perspective, the Advaitins with their non-sentient God are only a hop skip and a jump away from the Buddhists (who were originally atheists).

Re: Soul Meets Body: An initial examination of the Samkhya school

#42
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's convenient the natural hierarchy tells one lineage of human beings their entire purpose in life is to serve the people who discovered the "natural hierarchy". Reminds me of more recent discoverors of the "natural hierarchy" and their methods of educating others...

That’s a very simple and inaccurate interpretation.

What is your interpretation of the caste system?

Re: Soul Meets Body: An initial examination of the Samkhya school

#43
post #12

Well written, I am on my personal journey to discover what being a Hindu means. I am appalled by the fact that the true knowledge and the diversity of different schools and line of thoughts has been dissolved and sublimated into a crude understanding of what Hinduism means. I have thought about it a lot, and I think the main reason is that there is no single doctrine / school that everyone agreed upon in the past. I…

> And I was proved entirely wrong when I started reading The Upanishads, which are part of the Vedic literature. Their being classified a part of the "Vedic" literature is not borne out by linguistic analysis, even though tradition claims it to be. They post-date the actual Vedas themselves by centuries. The language used in most of them does not contain nearly as much irregularity as the Vedic language nor its pitch…

This argument is circular: it is only Western indology that defines “Vedic” as referring to “the actual Vedas” by which it means only the saṃhitā portion of the texts. The traditional Indian understanding of “Veda” is indeed that it includes both mantra (saṃhitā) and brāhṃaṇa — the latter including āraṇyaka and upaniṣad. Yes it's true that sometimes when (say) “Ṛgveda” is mentioned, in that context it may refer only to the ṛk saṃhitā, etc — but the narrow meaning is only contextual; in general one talks of which brāhmaṇa-s / āraṇyaka-s / upaniṣad-s belong to which Veda, etc.

More generally the Vedāṅgas are also considered part of the Veda, etc. When Pāṇini (whom you allude to in one of the replies here) distinguishes the older language, he uses terms like “chandasi” not "in the Vedas”. Even today when a certain practice or person is called “Vaidika” obviously it doesn't mean a certain time period, belonging to several centuries BCE.

Ultimately, to consider linguistic analysis relevant to the definition of “Vedic” and to say “to lump them into one is incorrect, even if that is the tradition” is simply saying “let's make up a definition of ‘Vedic’ different from the traditional definition, under which the traditional definition can be termed incorrect” — no traditional scholar thinks of “Vedic” as referring to “the Vedic language” as referring to the language of the saṃhitās.

Edit: I have a theory for how this state of affairs came about: Western interest in Sanskrit texts took off in a big way after William Jones's (much-quoted) pronouncement of the relation between Sanskrit and Persian and Greek and Latin. So the interest started with linguists and philologists, who were naturally more interested in the oldest texts / the texts whose language was closest to the rest of the Indo-European family, and that has become the frame by which these texts are still talked about (rather than say the framing used by traditional Vaidika paṇḍita-s). This is why we see someone confidently deciding that linguistic analysis can tell us something about what “Veda” means or should mean, rather than only telling us about the language of a certain subset of texts.

Re: Soul Meets Body: An initial examination of the Samkhya school

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not count Ajivika or Charvaka as within the ambit of Hinduism, and neither did the Ancient Commentators. Both were considered heresies. Indeed, Ajivika is better understood as a distinct dharmic religion. In addition, Advaita is not a "non-sentient God", but that's a separate discussion. For the sake of the parent question, it would make sense to restrict to the Astika schools. Basal to these schools was an a…

Although most of the Nastika (atheist) literature has been lost over the ages, some texts are still available (The Charvaka text Tattvopaplavasimha in particular, I have a copy of it) and there's no reason to discount their philosophical contributions. Their contributions are no less important than the contributions of the Astikas (the Theists). Also, let's not forget that Buddhism which was more successful abroad th…

My concern is not whether the nastika schools had valuable contributions to the advancement of Indian philosophy. The question was one of defining Hinduism. Within the ambit of that question, casting the net wide enough to include Ajivika and Charvaka is too broad, and one the Ancient Indians wouldn't likely have made either. For example, the Hindu acharyas were pretty clear that Buddhism and Jainism were heresies and beyond the pale, and their opinion of Charvakaism is well known. Therefore I suggest that the question is best answered by restricting to the Astika schools, a categorization the ancient commentators would likely agree with.
Post reply on HN