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RED Epic camera - six times the resolution of HD video

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Re: RED Epic camera - six times the resolution of HD video

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resolution on the big screen isn't such a big deal - Avatar was only HD (1080). Sure 2K looks better but people weren't noticing the resolution. Increasing the frame rate has a bigger impact than increasing the resolution.

Minor nitpick: "2K" is actually very close to 1080p: 2048x1080 vs 1920x1080.

You've misunderstood what '2k' means - it refers to the y axis, not the x. Both aspect ratios you cite are effectively 1k.

Also, regarding Avatar - see the comment above about what it takes to compensate for lower resolution sources. There is absolutely no comparison between what Jim Cameron can do with 1080p + a quarter billion dollars, and what the average Sundance aspirant is trying to pull off for less than a million.

Re: RED Epic camera - six times the resolution of HD video

#43
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the exponentially lower amount of data handled by still cameras, it was much easier for them to eclipse 35mm film in terms of quality. Keep in mind that even 'burst mode' on a high-end DSLR only runs at 3-5 frames per second (not 30), and still requires a few seconds between bursts to process and write to disk. Film not only shoots at 24 frames per second (or more), but the final picture has to play on a screen…

Keep in mind that even 'burst mode' on a high-end DSLR only runs at 3-5 frames per second (not 30), and still requires a few seconds between bursts to process and write to disk. No. My 4 year old consumer level Nikon D80 will hit 3FPS. Yes, that's with a buffer, but in practice if I turn the JPEG quality down a touch, it'll run for a long time at that rate while pushing out 10MP files. I've no idea what it'd do at ev…

Exactly, you "turn the JPEG quality down a touch". That's a problem for two reasons. One, you're reducing the file quality (which may not create visible problems initially, but - I promise you - will cause all sorts of ugliness to appear if you post-process the frame several times over, as is par for the course in professional film and video production). Also, you're shooting JPEG, not RAW, meaning you're comparing apples to oranges. Try that test again using a file format comparable to what D-Cinema uses. Again, 3-5 frames is on the high end, and WAY short of the sustained 24 fps needed to compete with film.

Keep in mind that a 400' film load (a standard measure) gives you 11 minutes of shooting at 24fps. Every time you stop the camera to swap magazines, you cause a break in the shooting. Producers want to decrease the number of interruptions like this, not increase them. One of the (many) things video needs to offer to be competitive is equal or greater time between reloads. With digital, memory capacity isn't the only limit on run time. The reality of cameras shutting down due to overheating (a non-issue with film, but something I've experienced with Canon 5Ds) also needs to be accounted for. And again, this is all about beating established industry benchmarks. On a high-end shoot, your camera package is actually one of your smaller costs. Saving a few bucks here is bad economics when it leads to delays that put your crew into overtime.

Regarding "Toy Story". That's a CG film. At the time it was made, per-frame rendering times for (a) the source images (b) the up-sampling and (c) the film-out were all measured in minutes, hours, and sometimes days - not fractions of seconds. Because the production wasn't having to contend with anything happening in real time, they could afford to take the extra time to create those initial frames using ridiculously high bit rates and no compression whatsoever. In other words, they were free from the two primary sources of trouble that lead to visual artifacts in upresed images. And since the entire film was created in-computer, there was no post-processing whatsoever. That is to say, the upsampled files were first generation copies of (exceedingly clean) master images.

It's worth remember in that the massive render farms used to deliver all this are exactly that - massive. As in, they need their own air-conditioned warehouses. That kind of hardware support isn't even feasible for studio shooting, let alone location work. So sure, you COULD master at 1k and go up, but only under incredibly controlled conditions that result in bills averaging $1 million per finished minute.

Shooting action live then heavily processing your material in post is a completly different ballgame. Personally, I'm thrilled that video solutions are coming to market that can (finally) rival film, which is a colossal pain in the ass, and the source of some pretty major creative constraints. Still, the competition had some cons that were (a) major and (b) non-obvious to non-professionals. So I wanted to help mey understand why the change from film to digital hadn't occurred with the same speed and thoroughness as it did in the still-photography world.

Re: RED Epic camera - six times the resolution of HD video

#44
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're an order of magnitude cheaper than the competition, as is claimed elsewhere, couldn't you just buy two or three and switch when they're rebooting?

The Red camera is often used with a large number of accessories. In most cases, switching from one camera to another would take longer than rebooting.

This is doubly true of you're using complex rigs (e.g. steadicams, cranes, helicopters, etc.) Also, film-outs (the moment a reel runs out) are 100% predictable. Crashes are not. That means you're not only having to factor in the time to swap cameras, you're also potentially having to deal with resetting and reshooting the take the camera crashed on.

Also, cameras bodies are actually relatively cheap (even film). The really expensive parts are the lenses, which can easily run from 2-10 times the price of the camera itself. And that's before you consider the extra labor required to check each lens out of the rental house, or the cost of insuring them while they're on the job. So unless you also want to double your supply of glass (which triggers a slew of additional charges), constantly swapping bodies means a lens change every time as well. If you're working in an even slightly dusty or moist environment, this is even more undesirable.

Re: RED Epic camera - six times the resolution of HD video

#45
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better aliasing performance (things like chain link fences won't look jagged), more sharpness retained after multiple rounds of processing, etc. Try recording a TV show in SD resolution, then record the HD version and resize it to SD. The HD-scaled-to-SD version is much sharper than the SD version.

Ofcourse the SD TV show will look less sharp then the HD version scaled to SD. But this doesn't have anything to do with my question. Last time I checked HD is around 2Mpx. Why would you need 14Mpx as source material? 7 times oversampling?

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

Re: RED Epic camera - six times the resolution of HD video

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a fraction of the price.

I don't think that will be accurate with Scarlet showing up. The other big difference from the Red cameras and Canon is RAW versus a heavily compressed h264.

Which means it's not even remotely comparable for professional work. Keep in mind that it's not just the amount, but the type of compression that's decisive.

Spatial codecs (also known as intraframe schemes) deal with each frame independently. That is to say, they don't apply calculations across a set of frames, even when much of the information is repeated.

Temporal codecs (also known as interframe, of which H.264 is the most popular example) achieve vastly lower file sizes by applying samples from one image across a set (aka a 'group of pictures, or GOP). This is fantastically useful for broadcast and streaming, since you get high visual quality in an efficient package. But if you try to DO anything with that video (reformatting, enlarging, compositing, etc.) the downside will become very clear very quickly.

Typically, professional shows are going to demand a lot of flexibility in post, meaning they're likely to insist on spatial codecs whenever possible.

Re: RED Epic camera - six times the resolution of HD video

#48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that will be accurate with Scarlet showing up. The other big difference from the Red cameras and Canon is RAW versus a heavily compressed h264.

Which means it's not even remotely comparable for professional work. Keep in mind that it's not just the amount, but the type of compression that's decisive. Spatial codecs (also known as intraframe schemes) deal with each frame independently. That is to say, they don't apply calculations across a set of frames, even when much of the information is repeated. Temporal codecs (also known as interframe, of which H.264 i…

I have seen some 5D stuff that was pretty good and House used one for an episode. I think the Epic is going to be a big hit (size, 5K raw) and I expect the same of Scarlet.

Re: RED Epic camera - six times the resolution of HD video

#49
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're an order of magnitude cheaper than the competition, as is claimed elsewhere, couldn't you just buy two or three and switch when they're rebooting?

The older Red One had a much longer report time than the new Epic.

s/report/reboot/ err

Re: RED Epic camera - six times the resolution of HD video

#50
post #3

Werner Herzog was apparently not impressed http://www.dgaquarterly.org/BACKISSUES/Winter2010/DGAIntervi... Q: What about shooting digitally? A: We used the RED camera for My Son, My Son, What Have Ye Done. It's an immature camera created by computer people who do not have a sensibility or understanding for the value of high-precision mechanics, which has a 200-year history. It's terrible: Whenever you have to reboot…

I get the feeling that Werner enjoys taking this rebellious attitude towards a technology that so many of his art-film peers have been lauding since the release of the One. Soderberg has been shooting Red for years now. The Social Network was shot on a Red One. The Epic is taking the technology mainstream. Peter Jackson bought 30 Epics to shoot The Hobbit with.

My on-set experience with the One, as a student, was remarkably similar. I do not, however, assume that the camera hasn't been improved greatly in the last few years. There is some credence to the complaint of the design's orientation, however. The inability to look through the lens is something that really bothered me, as the operator. It's just one reason I appreciate the careful design of film cameras.
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