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Curry Before Columbus

contingentmagazine.org

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Re: Curry Before Columbus

#41

Post by patrickaljord »

vishnugupta wrote: post #28
patrickaljord wrote: post #16

I've lived in Peru which also has a very spicy cuisine (many chilis come from the Andes). However, you'd be surprised at the amount of locals who confessed to me they didn't like food that is too spicy (they like it mildly spiced, or white people spiced as the article says) or spicy at all. It wouldn't surprise me if these two combined would represent 50% of the population. Could be the same in India.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. They are two orthogonal parameters, you could dial (up or down) them independent of each other. Most spices aren’t chilly, they add unique smell and flavor without burning the tongue. Coming to India, almost every cuisine is spicy for sure. At least I don’t know of one that is not. Indians grow up immersed in spicy food and can’t live without it. A…

Yeah sorry, by spicy I meant hot. Every cuisine uses spices of some kind. As another commenter said, spicy usually means hot, while spiced means it has some kind of condiment in it such as salt and pepper or any other kind.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#42

Post by dfxm12 »

vishnugupta wrote: post #28
patrickaljord wrote: post #16

I've lived in Peru which also has a very spicy cuisine (many chilis come from the Andes). However, you'd be surprised at the amount of locals who confessed to me they didn't like food that is too spicy (they like it mildly spiced, or white people spiced as the article says) or spicy at all. It wouldn't surprise me if these two combined would represent 50% of the population. Could be the same in India.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. They are two orthogonal parameters, you could dial (up or down) them independent of each other. Most spices aren’t chilly, they add unique smell and flavor without burning the tongue. Coming to India, almost every cuisine is spicy for sure. At least I don’t know of one that is not. Indians grow up immersed in spicy food and can’t live without it. A…

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”.

I disagree. You're describing the difference between "spicy" (e.g., cayenne) and "warm spiced" or "spiced" (e.g., cumin). When a dish tastes of cumin, one doesn't call it "spicy", they use a different term.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#43

Post by phonypc »

bogomipz wrote: post #40
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hotness is relative though: they may not "dial it up" by Indian standards, but chili still makes its way into almost everything. A Russian colleague of mine visiting Delhi, not generally regarded as a hotbed of hotness, found virtually everything except dal makhani inedibly spicy -- because she was used to Russian food, where chilis traditionally don't feature at all. India is also one of the few places I've been to…

No, food can be spicy without being hot. The OPs point I believe is that hot and spicy are often incorrectly used interchangeably. Dishes with cinnamon, cardamon, cloves, nutmeg, star anise, cardomom could all be considered "spicy" but without a component that specifically adds heat(chili seeds, wasabi, horseradish, tobasco) they would not be hot. There are also many chili peppers that are sweet and mild - Ancho Chil…

I don't think it's incorrect per se to uses spicy and hot interchangeably. It's just maybe not common to all dialects of English. Where I'm from nobody would refer to a dish flavored with your first list as spicy.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#44

Post by Finnucane »

Just before the lockdown I threw away some hing that had been on my spice rack for a long time. Way longer than one should keep spices. So I went to the local spice shop to stock up on some items, including a fresh jar of asefetida. I had forgotten how pungent it is when fresh. Now when I open the cabinet it hits me.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#45

Post by rob74 »

Finnucane wrote: post #44

Just before the lockdown I threw away some hing that had been on my spice rack for a long time. Way longer than one should keep spices. So I went to the local spice shop to stock up on some items, including a fresh jar of asefetida. I had forgotten how pungent it is when fresh. Now when I open the cabinet it hits me.

Interesting! I have never heard of this particular spice before, although I may have already eaten it at an Indian restaurant. As to the "pungent" part, it's already in the name:

> The English name is derived from asa, a latinised form of Persian azā, meaning "resin", and Latin foetidus meaning "smelling, fetid", which refers to its strong sulfurous odour

The German names are even less flattering:

> Asant (Ferula assa-foetida), auch bekannt als Stinkasant oder Teufelsdreck - "stinking asant" or "devil's dirt"...

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#46

Post by exhaze »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #36
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hotness is relative though: they may not "dial it up" by Indian standards, but chili still makes its way into almost everything. A Russian colleague of mine visiting Delhi, not generally regarded as a hotbed of hotness, found virtually everything except dal makhani inedibly spicy -- because she was used to Russian food, where chilis traditionally don't feature at all. India is also one of the few places I've been to…

Sure but did she find it spicy as in "having copious amounts of spice" or spicy as "a taste similar to food that is of a high temperature" or spicy as in "off-gassing something that irritates one's nasal passages" (I don't really consider this last one "spicy" or "hot" but many people do so I'm including it)? To reply that "hotness is relative" without clarifying which usage of the word you mean or implying that your…

Can’t speak for the rest of the anglosphere, but in the US, when someone says “spicy”, they mean “this has too much capsaicin”. If someone were referring to the strength of the taste, they would probably just say “I don’t like this flavor”, or as a stretch, “the spices in this dish are too strong”. Not sure what point you’re making here. I assure you, even though there may not be dedicated words for them, English speakers are quite able to articulate the differences between the different categories of plants that are added to food to make it taste better.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#47

Post by [deleted] »

rob74 wrote: post #45
Finnucane wrote: post #44

Just before the lockdown I threw away some hing that had been on my spice rack for a long time. Way longer than one should keep spices. So I went to the local spice shop to stock up on some items, including a fresh jar of asefetida. I had forgotten how pungent it is when fresh. Now when I open the cabinet it hits me.

Interesting! I have never heard of this particular spice before, although I may have already eaten it at an Indian restaurant. As to the "pungent" part, it's already in the name: > The English name is derived from asa, a latinised form of Persian azā, meaning "resin", and Latin foetidus meaning "smelling, fetid", which refers to its strong sulfurous odour The German names are even less flattering: > Asant (Ferula ass…

[deleted]

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#48

Post by DanBC »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #18
DanBC wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To say it’s colonial is a bit of a stretch. It’s simply a word chosen by a group of outsiders to categorize something they didn’t know much about. A group of British outsiders who were in India because of the British Empire?

There’s absolutely nothing uniquely colonial about coming up with words to describe things that are new to you. It’s simply a result of one culture coming into contact with another. To say using language to describe new things is colonial is frankly ridiculous.

You're trying to say that colonisers, living in the colony, corrupting and simplifying the local language because it's too hard for them to bother learning, is somehow not colonial.

> To say using language to describe new things is colonial is frankly ridiculous.

They took a wide range of food, with very different characteristics, representing huge geographical and cultural spread, and reduced all of that to an anglicised word "curry".

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#49

Post by DanBC »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #25
DanBC wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To say it’s colonial is a bit of a stretch. It’s simply a word chosen by a group of outsiders to categorize something they didn’t know much about. A group of British outsiders who were in India because of the British Empire?

As some one said about English "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary" There are a lot of words borrowed from India still in use to this day squaddie for example being derived from 'swaddy' a type on Indian soldier

Yes. Hobson Jobson has a large dictionary of these words: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18796493

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#50

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

dfxm12 wrote: post #42
vishnugupta wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. They are two orthogonal parameters, you could dial (up or down) them independent of each other. Most spices aren’t chilly, they add unique smell and flavor without burning the tongue. Coming to India, almost every cuisine is spicy for sure. At least I don’t know of one that is not. Indians grow up immersed in spicy food and can’t live without it. A…

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. I disagree. You're describing the difference between "spicy" (e.g., cayenne) and "warm spiced" or "spiced" (e.g., cumin). When a dish tastes of cumin, one doesn't call it "spicy", they use a different term.

There's a traditional dish from the Greek island of Corfu called "pastitsada". It's pasta topped with meat (usually beef) cooked in a red tomato sauce with cinnamon, allspice, nutmeg, clove, paprika, chilli pepper, black pepper and cumin. I typically add white pepper and cardamom, others have their own secret recipes.

So, how do you call that, if not spicy? It's a genuine question because English is not my first language and I always refer to food that's heavy on spices as "spicey", because I don't know any other word for it.

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