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Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

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Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#41

Post by dgb23 »

stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

I think an apprentice role with:

- a real chance and a clear path to 'upgrading' to a dev role

- generally good integration with the team (AKA not a person 'over there')

- mentoring & pair programming (for example for bug fixes)

- time scheduled for learning

Can be both attractive for an inexperienced applicant and very useful for a team. Just note that if you take an apprentice or even intern, then you have a responsibility of teaching and helping that person grow.

Also note that some of the things you mentioned, specifically QA and documentation, are quite hard to do well. There needs to be some guidance.

The danger is that people just/only give an apprentice tasks that nobody else wants to do. Some of that is fine, but I've seen people give interns/apprentices tasks which required expertise but were 'boring'. This is a failure in my eyes, because now your apprentice is overwhelmed and demotivated.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#42

Post by austincheney »

stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

There is a shortage of talent but it’s self-induced. There is no common baseline of competency. So when talent seems rare or absent what is cheaper: waiting for talent to materialize or lowering the level of acceptance.

The problem with that is that the new lower level of acceptance only provides temporary relief for the current shortage. Later developers see this new lower level of acceptance the same way prior developers saw the prior level of acceptance and thus the bar must be lowered further because the shortage rate remains unchanged.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#43

Post by pkaye »

grugagag wrote: post #15

It is true, and not that I am trying to be dishonest myself but I am not the same person while taking an interview. It's a sad that we can't be honest or humble but in this system we have to sell ourselves, fake enthusiasm for the hiring company is a must, do whatever it takes to pass the interview then think later if we take the position or not. If not, somebody else with the same capability or or less will snatch t…

> In an ideal world a trial period would ensure both the employees and employers are a fit. But that could be abused as well if it becomes the norm.

I was talking to our work HR director about this and given that US is mostly "at will" employment, either side could decide to end the employment at any time so a trial period doesn't really mean much. Secondly its hard on the employee if we let them go on short notice so we try to hire from a long term perspective.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#44

Post by hellcow »

smichel17 wrote: post #39
hellcow wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All these "competency tests" are good for is catching blatant lying. Is this a serious problem? Of the people I interview that claim they have years of experience, mastery over multiple languages, and expertise in various frameworks, a solid 80% or more can't pass fizz-buzz in any language they choose.

Claims made on resume or in person? On the seeking side, I've felt pressure to put every technology I've used even in passing on my resume, to satisfy "buzzword bingo" and get through the initial screen, but in an interview I would give a (truthful) answer along the lines of "I don't have a ton of experience, but I know the basics; enough to be confident that I can quickly pick up whatever else I need to learn on the…

> Claims made on resume or in person?

Both. And it's not "putting every technology I've used even in passing on the resume" that bothers me. It's "I don't know how to write a loop or a function in any programming language."

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#45

Post by exabrial »

Silicon Valley interviews are worthless. The algorithm pop-quiz is just a way for the interviewer to beat his chest about some obscure facts and demonstrate his superior knowledge to the interviewee.

Has anyone found a better process than casual conversation? I've found it effective as long as engineers and non-engineers get a chance to participate. Usually I talk about what they want, talk about what you need, talk about expectations from both parties, talk about needs, and talk about past experiences both good and bad. Once expectations are set, there's literally no opportunity for a "bad hire", because if they don't live up, it's a simple conversation to refer back to the expectations that are set and help them achieve , or worst-case, offer them severance.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#46

Post by ksk »

grugagag wrote: post #15

It is true, and not that I am trying to be dishonest myself but I am not the same person while taking an interview. It's a sad that we can't be honest or humble but in this system we have to sell ourselves, fake enthusiasm for the hiring company is a must, do whatever it takes to pass the interview then think later if we take the position or not. If not, somebody else with the same capability or or less will snatch t…

In an ironic cycle, many employers also market their services and products in this fashion - over the top marketing, fake enthusiasm for the customer, over-selling features, constant talk about "community", virtue-signalling with social media posts on hot button political topics, etc, etc. To be sure, I'm not saying everyone and everything is fake, but it's interesting to just climb out to the bank, clear the clutter and just observe how the river flows.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#47

Post by Afton »

grugagag wrote: post #34
Afton wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone always suggests this. The issue is that if you did this, 95% of the candidates that would agree to this kind of setup would be the kind you didn't want. If I'm sitting on 2 offers, one is a hire and one is a "Let's see how this works out after 2 weeks of work", I'm going to take the first one. And that says nothing for the necessary benefits question in the states, where changing jobs often involves expensive…

We don't know for sure and it's hard to know how this works. What's obvious is that the current system is broken and we need a replacement of some sort. Being able to try a company and see whether they like me and whether I like them and the type of projects I am supposed to work would be a major factor in finding the right marriage. We take jobs for the salary tag and quite often we do whatever we have to do to cont…

For sure, it's an empirical question what %age of people who would accept this kind of offer are "I have no other choice, so I accept your offer" or "I want to make sure I will actually want to work at your company".

I'm just saying that I would 100% not do this unless I had no other choice, or was independently wealthy.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#49

Post by dang »

stepstop wrote: post #6

Wow, that headline is a stick in the mud on a nuanced topic. > What’s your biggest weakness? Where do you see yourself in five years? Why do you want this job? Why are you leaving your current job? I do a lot of tech & business interviews, and I don't ask those questions (unless they've recently left A LOT of jobs). I ask situational questions to understand how they think, who they talk to, what research they did to…

Ok, we'll replace it with some of the mud in the headline above.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#50

Post by flashgordon »

stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

This is a great idea for apprentices/entry level talent. However what I see in FAANGs is that though we claim to have a shortage, the reality is that demand is low (internal headcount) and supply is high (for ELTs). The leetcode style coding interviews is very very pushed for so that we can have a standardized process whether that is what the job entails or not. After all most of the work being done is on some custom stack anyway. The downside of this it ends up impacting experienced engineers who are being evaluated on the standardized tests rather than experience sadly. I feel this may even be the desired outcome!
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