Earlier quoted context omitted.
whatshisface wasn't trying to prove the opposite. It was a simple statement about somebody not showing evidence while making pronouncements about how half the human race behaves. You probably wouldn't have a problem with this in most other contexts; if somebody made a sweeping technical claim with no explanation or particular qualification, you'd laugh.
Whatshisface claimed the opposite and cited no evidence, just like the original that he’s criticizing.
Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
41–50 of 52 posts
Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here's the worry that I'm hearing from people: 1. I write an article or a comment that's acceptable, or even encouraged by the powerful people running the show today. 2. The powerful people get changed out for other powerful people, and they start encouraging different articles, articles very different from the ones I've been writing. 3. The new powerful people attack me for following the old powerful people, even th…
I'm sorry to hear that, but I would ask (5) how much time have people here had to serve "in the doghouse"? How much damage have folks here taken from these "powerful people"? It seems specious and speculative.
Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is there isn't a culturally agreeable calculus to know when someone is trustworthy, and that the "punishment" here is one of withdrawing from relations through the free exercise of association. The main intervention you can do is to tell people to stop exercising their freedom of association. > That goes for most actions too: Even if you murdered someone 30 years ago, if you served your time and reformed,…
> If a person molested one child 30 years, should a label of "sex offender" follow them as they... > If someone wrote in their youth on the violent nature of the negro and their intellectual... They should be judged based on their current opinions and actions.
I agree there needs to be a path forward for people to move beyond their mistakes, but it's not clear to me that time since last known offense is the only qualifier.
Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, this executive voluntarily resigned. He could have just as easily issued a statement condemning his younger self for their sexist and puerile remarks, disavowing his older views and committing himself to doing better. Plenty of folks have done just that, and found themselves growing and improving as people. There are plenty of loud politicians that, since the 1970s, have supported gay rights; Bernie comes to mi…
"Well, this executive voluntarily resigned." In this context, "voluntarily resignation" usually means "resign now, or you're fired": https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/23/business/23family.html "He could have just as easily issued a statement condemning his younger self for their sexist and puerile remarks, disavowing his older views and committing himself to doing better." He did do all of these things. It didn't matte…
Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sorry to hear that, but I would ask (5) how much time have people here had to serve "in the doghouse"? How much damage have folks here taken from these "powerful people"? It seems specious and speculative.
What is the threshold, how bad does the damage need to be to be worth considering?
Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
#46this cancel culture thing is getting out of control. First you cannot judge how people would talk or act in the past based in present values. Why are people able to consider cultural subjectivity when talking about other cultures, but not our own? We are not the same society that we where 40 years ago. Things changed, opnions to And event if the guy was sexist, this attitute dosent consider if his opnion changed over…
He was canceled by Boeing. If they thought he was worth keeping, it would have been very easy to defend him against this ancient article, especially since his classy exit shows him to be willing to contritely say the right things now. If you're saying that Boeing is out of control, I agree, although firing some exec for being passionately sexist at one time in his life doesn't rank on the list of their sins imo.
Would it? Or would anyone who tried to defend him also have their own 30+ years ago opinions dredged up? It's not safe for anyone until there is "herd immunity" against being cancelled and we're a long way from there yet.
Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If a person molested one child 30 years, should a label of "sex offender" follow them as they... > If someone wrote in their youth on the violent nature of the negro and their intellectual... They should be judged based on their current opinions and actions.
Serious question... How do we know when someone's past actions are no longer relevant? Obviously if someone wrote a bunch of racist crap yesterday, they shouldn't be given a pass because they didn't write any today. I agree there needs to be a path forward for people to move beyond their mistakes, but it's not clear to me that time since last known offense is the only qualifier.
Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
#48Core to any sort of social progress is the belief that people can change, and people changing. I sure as heck wouldn't want anyone judged for views they held 30 years ago. I don't want to be judged for the views I hold today in 30 years either. That goes for most actions too: Even if you murdered someone 30 years ago, if you served your time and reformed, you ought to be able to have a normal life now. I'm a differen…
The problem is there isn't a culturally agreeable calculus to know when someone is trustworthy, and that the "punishment" here is one of withdrawing from relations through the free exercise of association. The main intervention you can do is to tell people to stop exercising their freedom of association. > That goes for most actions too: Even if you murdered someone 30 years ago, if you served your time and reformed,…
There were plenty of, for example, KKK members who then became anti-KKK activists. If you were born in 1915, and your parents were a member of the KKK, odds are pretty good you might have written something like that in the 1930's. It's how you were brought up. We don't have permanent digital records of everything that happened, but I'd say it's almost guaranteed you would have expressed such views.
If by the 1950s and 1960's, you had renounced those views, and wanted to be a civil rights activist, it's important you can do that. If anything, familiarity with the opposition would make you more effective.
Without the ability to do that, the civil rights movement would have needed to wait for a lot of people to die (or at least retire). It happened when it did in part because people could and did change their minds.
So to answer your question: In all of the cases you listed, it's possible for people to grow and reform. It's a question of what evidence is available that they have, in fact, reformed. To go with the KKK example, sharing KKK secrets with the FBI, taking the large personal risk of publicly denouncing the organization, and joining the civil rights movement would be pretty darned good evidence.
Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is there isn't a culturally agreeable calculus to know when someone is trustworthy, and that the "punishment" here is one of withdrawing from relations through the free exercise of association. The main intervention you can do is to tell people to stop exercising their freedom of association. > That goes for most actions too: Even if you murdered someone 30 years ago, if you served your time and reformed,…
I think key in my post was "and reformed." There were plenty of, for example, KKK members who then became anti-KKK activists. If you were born in 1915, and your parents were a member of the KKK, odds are pretty good you might have written something like that in the 1930's. It's how you were brought up. We don't have permanent digital records of everything that happened, but I'd say it's almost guaranteed you would ha…
Is there good reason to expect that they reformed?
Is it as or more reasonable to expect they've simply learnt to hold their more objectionable views close to the vest?
If the answer to the former is "no," and to the latter is "yes," then I don't really know how you'd expect anyone to work with a leadership that openly views them as a hindrance to the workplace.
If he'd made a public anti-semitic article 20 years ago, and didn't undertake very significant acts of reformation, certainly I would take for granted that he's still an anti-semite. There's no reason to imagine otherwise. And I'd feel very uncomfortable working for a company where the leadership includes and accepts a publicly professed anti-semite.
Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think key in my post was "and reformed." There were plenty of, for example, KKK members who then became anti-KKK activists. If you were born in 1915, and your parents were a member of the KKK, odds are pretty good you might have written something like that in the 1930's. It's how you were brought up. We don't have permanent digital records of everything that happened, but I'd say it's almost guaranteed you would ha…
> I think key in my post was "and reformed." Is there good reason to expect that they reformed? Is it as or more reasonable to expect they've simply learnt to hold their more objectionable views close to the vest? If the answer to the former is "no," and to the latter is "yes," then I don't really know how you'd expect anyone to work with a leadership that openly views them as a hindrance to the workplace. If he'd ma…
(1) He said so. (2) There weren't any allegations of improprieties in the past decade or two in the articles I've read. (3) 30 years ago, likely a majority (and certainly a near-majority) of people had at least some level of discomfort with women serving equally in the military. Today, it's an extremist view held by a tiny minority. Most people who held those views 30 years ago did, in fact, change views, not closet them up.
What you're describing is a symptom of exactly this cancel culture. People DO learn to hold their more objectionable views close to the vest, and that's a problem. People can't actually change views without open and critical conversations.
I live in an extremely progressive city with a lot of racism and bigotry simmering just below the surface. It's bad -- many people in positions of power hold extremely bigoted views. That never plays out in the open, but those people act on those views, either without articulating them, or articulating them as abstractions.
I see no way to address any of that without honest and open conversations, which we can't have. Saying the wrong thing leads to career death, so everyone says the PC thing.
And when racism happens, in most cases, people depart quietly, and move into a similar position at another company / school / police department / etc. It's pretty rare that anything goes public. But if it did -- someone was closed out of the economy because of a perception that they were racist -- what do you think the result of that on racial tensions would be?
It's important to have systems to address and resolve problems. If you have a racist, the desired outcome should be that in a few years, they're not racist anymore. Start there, and work backwards to how to build out systems to do that.
There's also a longer post about the value of due process, and of innocent-until-proven-guilty (which is not the same as NO process, which is what we often have right now).
As a footnote, your discomfort is not the paramount issue here. We have laws to protect former felons, people with bad credit records, etc. from employment discrimination. Even if I might rather not hire a former felon, or someone who can't manage their finances well, I'm not allowed to ask those questions in a job interview. That allows people who've made mistakes -- often much bigger than this one -- to return as contributing members of society. That's a good thing. Otherwise, we end up with revolving doors to jails. Indeed, I'd argue those are the laws which ought to be expanded -- they're not nearly strong enough, and that disproportionately impacts vulnerable populations. We want paths to remediation for everyone, rather than for no one.