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Stonehenge: Neolithic monument found near sacred site

bbc.com

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Re: Stonehenge: Neolithic monument found near sacred site

#41
There's a lot of speculation here about cultural amnesia, but I think that's partly missing the point - which is the sheer scale of the project.

These structures are absolutely massive. I used to live in the area and it took me a long time to see Durrington Walls, partly because it's hard to imagine an earthwork on that scale. I literally did a double take when I realised that some earth banks were part of this huge construction.

The Walls are a small enclosure inside this much bigger complex, and they still cover an area bigger than Wembley stadium, which can seat up to 90,000 people.

This new ring of shafts - presumably with objects inside them - is slightly smaller than the entire town of Salisbury a few miles to the south. It makes the Old Sarum earthwork, which used to be Salisbury in medieval times, look like a footnote.

For a neolithic culture, it must have taken an absolutely insane amount of planning and physical effort - and this at a time when the total population of the British Isles was less than 200,000 people.

Re: Stonehenge: Neolithic monument found near sacred site

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't present an argument for an upper limit on how advanced past civilizations can have been without detection but for an excluded middle, because, sure, a civilization at our level would be easily detectable, but one that developed to where it could operate without environmental pollution and which could clean up the pollution that it made on the way to it's advanced state would not be so detectable.

This is a line of thinking that wanders away from intellectual curiosity and into intellectual madness. You're describing a process that would somehow "undo" micro- and macro-scopic effects and chemistry in rock and ice records around the world -- including those on the ocean floor -- without, itself, leaving any trace. It would be like peeling the skin off an onion, running that layer through a food processor, and t…

It sounds like children’s magic wand thinking.

Convert all trash into its pure elements. Take chemical elements and transform into magic city, etc.

It’s fantastic but not based on reality.

Re: Stonehenge: Neolithic monument found near sacred site

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty old idea that was recently rebranded as the "Silurian Hypothesis". If you put in a bit of thought, it'll be obvious that it essentially boils down to one of two things: Either every paleoanthropologist, archaeologist, and geologist out there is in a massive conspiracy to hide the truth, or all of the people in those disciplines are complete idiots. An event like that would leave strong genetic, palyn…

You could be right. It is certainly a compelling argument; "either scientists are in a conspiracy or complete idiots" (paraphrased). The answer is however unequivocally: we don't know. And it behooves to be a bit more humble when it comes to these things, and investigate each claim individually instead of making blanket statements about everything such. There are several aspects one can take into account that can ins…

You're right that I could have been less aggressive.

However you seem to have some misunderstandings of my post and personal positions. I am in full support of smashing the ivory tower, public access to archaeology (it's their heritage), and understanding the limits of our technology. What I do not support is trying to find some perceived gap and slotting in made up story, especially an unreasonable one. The grandparent is firmly in the latter.

Moreover, these kinds of wild stories do a great deal of harm to archaeology. I can't tell you how many burials I've seen looted because someone believed all graves have treasure. It's better to stick with the evidence we do have.

Re: Stonehenge: Neolithic monument found near sacred site

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty old idea that was recently rebranded as the "Silurian Hypothesis". If you put in a bit of thought, it'll be obvious that it essentially boils down to one of two things: Either every paleoanthropologist, archaeologist, and geologist out there is in a massive conspiracy to hide the truth, or all of the people in those disciplines are complete idiots. An event like that would leave strong genetic, palyn…

You know Graham Hancock? "Archeologists hate him, this one weird trick to discover ancient civilizations". He recently said in an interview that younger archeologists have read his work and are subversively challenging the orthodoxy. Also Randall Carlson mentioned that mainstream Geology has already come round to the idea of a catalysmic event around the time of The Younger Dryas. Now I don't know how much of what ei…

I was thinking of Hancock when I wrote the post.

One of the major problems with this particular idea is that the number of things that would have to be wrong is so large, we're essentially talking about rewriting everything from scratch. It's on roughly the same level as geocentrism at this point.

The advocates rarely if ever point out real evidence and instead claim things like gobekli tepe (or worse, yonaguni) support their argument based on very deep misunderstandings.

Re: Stonehenge: Neolithic monument found near sacred site

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could be right. It is certainly a compelling argument; "either scientists are in a conspiracy or complete idiots" (paraphrased). The answer is however unequivocally: we don't know. And it behooves to be a bit more humble when it comes to these things, and investigate each claim individually instead of making blanket statements about everything such. There are several aspects one can take into account that can ins…

So no, let's assume that we don't know, that anything is possible. But let's also inspect the evidence for each fantastical claim with best of our knowledge. Well, first of all, you don't know that anything is possible. To assert something is possible without actually showing it is possible is meaningless. That doesn't mean we can conclude it isn't possible, just that we don't know if it's possible. Second, while 'we…

> If you want people to take it seriously, you need to provide evidence.

That really depends on what "people" you are talking about. There is a considerable market for fantastical misinformation about history, especially when the fantasy reinforces things we want to believe about ourselves today.

I have personally been led down a few story paths purporting to be historical but turning out to be nothing more recently constructed and idealized fantasies of the distant past.

Re: Stonehenge: Neolithic monument found near sacred site

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass Corona Ejection is the one theory that I find sticks in my mind most, when the question "what could possibly have reset things so drastically that none of the survivors would remember ancient civilisation?" is asked. Its like the Degauss'ing of our planet. I can imagine even we wouldn't survive such an event unscathed.

Why not a super volcano?

We'd have seen the magma layers covering Earth already. Mass corona ejection has the benefit of erasing the top layers of things (including civilisation), while leaving very little behind to indicate how it happened ..

Re: Stonehenge: Neolithic monument found near sacred site

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could be right. It is certainly a compelling argument; "either scientists are in a conspiracy or complete idiots" (paraphrased). The answer is however unequivocally: we don't know. And it behooves to be a bit more humble when it comes to these things, and investigate each claim individually instead of making blanket statements about everything such. There are several aspects one can take into account that can ins…

So no, let's assume that we don't know, that anything is possible. But let's also inspect the evidence for each fantastical claim with best of our knowledge. Well, first of all, you don't know that anything is possible. To assert something is possible without actually showing it is possible is meaningless. That doesn't mean we can conclude it isn't possible, just that we don't know if it's possible. Second, while 'we…

> Well, first of all, you don't know that anything is possible

I said "let's assume (...) that anything is possible", a completely different thing, so your argument that " we don't know if it's possible" is moot, and a classic case of a straw man argument.

> "while 'we don't know' is a perfectly acceptable position, it does not lead to,'therefore my pet idea is worthy'"

Again, you are mostly having an argument with yourself, as this is somewhat a misrepresentation of what I'm saying. My main point is that it behooves to be a bit humble when it comes to dismissing ideas that are possible albeit without firm evidence and that offhanded dismissal should be discouraged, unless one can actually disprove the claim. It is after all the stuff from which new knowledge is made. That doesn't mean that every scientist must engage and clamor to inspect the evidence for each fantastical claim (but I do believe that an active interest from the scientific community would help cleanse the scene of some of the more outrageous theories).

> "If you want people to take it seriously, you need to provide evidence."

Really? so all scientific endeavors must produce evidence before they are allowed to posit something? I think you will agree that this is an untenable position hold as a general principle, and you probably mean that any layman should not be allowed to posit anything without having the proper education and academic standing. Be that as it may, such ivory towers of academic snobbishness will fall, eventually.

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