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Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

garron.blog

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Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#41

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

chewmieser wrote: post #33
jchook wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JavaScript poses a large security and privacy risk. Think browser fingerprinting, XSS, JS-based analytics, poor or missing CSP + hijacked npm modules, etc. I generally keep JS disabled as much as possible.

That's great and it's your choice to disable it but his point was don't expect developers that rely on JavaScript to power modern web experiences to develop their site to fit your strict requirements. JS does way more then just fingerprint users and open up security vulnerabilities. You're in a minority that's asking for fall-backs in a world that's so far removed from simple fixes.

> power modern web experiences

So they're going to expect me to leave a major malware and privacy-invasion vector open so they can indulge in creating their 'web experiences'.

Nope. This sounds like kids playing around, not professionals working.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#42

Post by dsparkman »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #40
matthoiland wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent most of my career as a front end developer. We have three tools in our toolbox: HTML, CSS, and Javascript. We need them all and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. I also work in the healthcare space with heavy HIPAA security requirements. Like any language/framework/platform there are best practices to follow for solid security an…

> and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. OMG. For this 'better experience' and 'reimagining what the web can become' did you bother to ask the users you pretend to cater for? No? Listen carefully: the only experience I want from any website is to get to it, get the info I want, then I fuck off sharpish. I do not want 'experience' or any bloo…

Thank You! I could not have said that better myself.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#43

Post by speeder »

I am currently rewriting one of my companies site using Hugo, and good part of the reason is to be able to get rid of JS, it keep giving us more trouble than it is worth, constantly.

At first I was afraid my new site would be ugly and all... But I got pleasantly surprised by how good HTML 5 is right now, I am yet to find anything I want to make that I can't make with just HTML and CSS.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#44

Post by duxup »

The OMG JavaScript, parade of articles is tiresome / endless and IMO is trending towards the absurd, and it kinda irks me.

I could really go without ever hearing someone bemoan how they rewrote an internal react site in 10 seconds with two lines of JavaScript, or whatever old wives tale they've got going on. If it was that easy then maybe it also wasn't the end times?

Yeah there's a lot of pages that maybe could get away without JavaScript. But man it's not the 90s anymore, many site owners want lots of dynamic app like behaviors, and there's a real question there between "this reader doesn't want it" and "the person who is paying for the site wants some stuff".

Maybe someone has Homer Simpson's web page level absurdity with JavaScript, and maybe that's Homer's page and that's ok?

The browser now effectively runs apps, so it's not just going to read HTML, that's how it is, and that's a good thing the web does so much more now. Does it do everything we want / how we want/ no ... but I don't buy into the idea of a end user only web where we have to bow to the lowest common denominator as far as acceptable levels of interactivity or tech usage....

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#45

Post by boring_twenties »

aaomidi wrote: post #34
boring_twenties wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for anything other than very static content Honestly, that would be a damn good start. Just the other day I took a look at a job posting here on HN. It was nothing more than the company logo and the text of the rec. After JS was enabled, that is. Before that it was just the plain text string "You need JS enabled to run this app." What fucking app, lol?

Literally modern frontend frameworks that don't want to do SSR. Is it that surprising?

The only useful content on the page was not only static text, but static plain text.

If the modern frontend framework can't display that without JS, then I think it's fair to call it a shitty frontend framework.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#46

Post by robin_reala »

I built a side project a couple of months ago[1] that’s a PWA-installable interactive experience, but also degrades down to styled information in the absence of JS, and back to raw HTML if CSS fails. It’s surprisingly fun to build in this way.

(On another note, choosing to avoid a framework and just use some vanilla JS led to an extremely fast loading site.)

[1] https://www.designcritiquecards.com/

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#47

Post by ithrow »

josephcsible wrote: post #18
dmortin wrote: post #8

People like interactive sites which give immediate visual feedback for actions. Aside from the tracking stuff it's a better user experience, so it's unlikely to go away, especially if the demand for no-js is tiny.

You can have your cake and eat it too. Use progressive enhancement/graceful degradation so that users with JS get immediate visual feedback, and just fall back to reloads without JS.

That's more work and more messy than just writing the whole thing as a SPA from the beginning IME. I'm talking about real interactive applications, not simple blogs.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#48

Post by duxup »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #40
matthoiland wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent most of my career as a front end developer. We have three tools in our toolbox: HTML, CSS, and Javascript. We need them all and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. I also work in the healthcare space with heavy HIPAA security requirements. Like any language/framework/platform there are best practices to follow for solid security an…

> and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. OMG. For this 'better experience' and 'reimagining what the web can become' did you bother to ask the users you pretend to cater for? No? Listen carefully: the only experience I want from any website is to get to it, get the info I want, then I fuck off sharpish. I do not want 'experience' or any bloo…

It's also their site... to make how they want.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#49

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

danielskogly wrote: post #19

I wrote about a generalized way to use React, Redux and SSR to make sites that work without JS a short while ago[0] and I’m currently employing that strategy for a side project I’m working on. So far the biggest drawback is not being able to do a payment flow with Stripe Checkout without requiring JS on _my_ service, because Stripe.js is required to redirect a user to the checkout session. [0] https://news.ycombinato…

And my response was a big thank you but some serious doubts. I'm asking for no JS when it is reasonable, and what you are trying to do is accommodate my unreasonable requirements. If I may repost past of what I said there:

"I should clarify, I'm only moaning about JS used where it need not be, in the display of text and pictures. Essentially, stativc web pages. There are guys on this thread who are trying to make apps work withou JS and I'm getting uneasy about that - that level of functionality should, and perhaps must, be done client-side or the excess bandwidth and server-side load will become unmanageable. I would still not enable JS to allow those, but I can see why others would."

Trying to allow for extremists like myself, well, you may be doing too much in this particular type of case. Just giving me sensible static websites is fine, I'm not asking for more.

Re: Create No-JavaScript friendly sites

#50

Post by ithrow »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #40
matthoiland wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent most of my career as a front end developer. We have three tools in our toolbox: HTML, CSS, and Javascript. We need them all and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. I also work in the healthcare space with heavy HIPAA security requirements. Like any language/framework/platform there are best practices to follow for solid security an…

> and will push each to the extreme to create better experiences for our users and reimagine what the web can become. OMG. For this 'better experience' and 'reimagining what the web can become' did you bother to ask the users you pretend to cater for? No? Listen carefully: the only experience I want from any website is to get to it, get the info I want, then I fuck off sharpish. I do not want 'experience' or any bloo…

The web is more than static websites.
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