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Tribalism comes for pandemic science

thenewatlantis.com

41–50 of 211 posts

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#41
,,people should not be walking around with masks''

What Fauci was telling to people is not science. I was wearing my N100 masks when I had the chance, because I hadn't seen any evidence of masks making the coronavirus more infectious, but much evidence to the contrary. The whole anti-mask propaganda made it hard to me to trust scientific leaders, and even some papers at this point.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#42
post #5
post #3

"In this century, we have become accustomed to heated political debates that somehow avoid contact with reality." Which is a big problem. It keeps the US from actually doing anything. (Then again, that may be a good thing. The current administration does not do much follow-through, so most of the weirder ideas stay rhetoric and don't get implemented. Compare the rise of the Nazi party. Much of the stuff they planned…

Fascism is private enterprise under total government control. Of course it'll be very effective at getting things done, both the autobahns and the gas chambers. Communism is pretty effective too. It's government-owned enterprise under total government control. The only thing that really changes is who owns the means of production. And, well, under Communism you're de-facto a slave to the state as well. Not having a j…

Communism is known for economically collapsing on itself, that's not very efficient or productive.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, the right has been pretty consistent about tailoring the response according to risk—i.e., those who are at risk should isolate and everyone else should resume work. They happened to be right in this regard. The left has also made exceptions in their “lockdown everything” policy, specifically with regard to their own protests (and the response of pandemic experts is a particularly interesting case study o…

I didn't want to get into a game of who has been most wrong, because that will automatically trigger people to go back to their camps and hunker down. I agree that the "isolate the vulnerable, continue with life otherwise" is most likely the best outcome. The fact that this idea is attributed to the right is going to mean it is DOA, for the most part.

The main problem youi'll have with that is that many people assume that the value of a human life is infinite and we must expend all resources possible to save individuals. Neither of those makes for good economics, so folks who include economics and balanced risk into their equations often conflict with folks who want to take the "safest possible action with respect to human life".

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#44
Just a quiet reminder that accounting for other peoples' actions with "partisanship" and "tribalism" is just a very easy way to stop thinking about their reasoning or motivation. If someone explained your behavior away as unthinking loyalty or allegiance you would be offended-- and rightfully so.

P.S. This article is not an apolitical analysis of politics, this journal is not an apolitical scientific journal.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#45

This is so very disheartening. I will speak only for the United States, as I am not familiar enough with other countries to comment. Not only is this impacting nearly every single person in the country, it is ruining the financial situation of over 40m people, primarily concentrated within the most financially vulnerable. This is because leaders on the left and right have refused to respond to new data, and are worki…

I guess I am on the “left”, and my view throughout this thing has been “do what the experts say we should, while maintaining a diversity of expert views.” This is also the vibe I get from most of my “left” friends. Moreover, Europe has largely followed its experts’ advice —- and with a few exceptions they’ve largely brought cases under control, so it’s not like the advice was bad.

This “pox on both houses” post, in which you try to blame both sides equally (while also ignoring the fact that only one controls the executive branch of the Federal government), does not comport with my lived reality.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#46

,,people should not be walking around with masks'' What Fauci was telling to people is not science. I was wearing my N100 masks when I had the chance, because I hadn't seen any evidence of masks making the coronavirus more infectious, but much evidence to the contrary. The whole anti-mask propaganda made it hard to me to trust scientific leaders, and even some papers at this point.

[deleted]

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#47
post #39
post #24

Question: Has anyone here changed their mind about COVID19 in a major way as the data has become more complete? Just wondering. I have sensed in myself tribalistic tendencies of not changing my mind when the data changes. I'm trying hard to look at myself and recognize it and experiment with different thoughts. I find myself bouncing between thinking we have overreacted to then thinking that my perception of an overr…

I was pro lockdown at the beginning. Now, I’m convinced that we could have gotten most of the benefits with a substantially less invasive approach, especially outside the mega cities.

Or a shorter harder lockdown earlier on, combined with rigorous test and trace programme.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#48

This is so very disheartening. I will speak only for the United States, as I am not familiar enough with other countries to comment. Not only is this impacting nearly every single person in the country, it is ruining the financial situation of over 40m people, primarily concentrated within the most financially vulnerable. This is because leaders on the left and right have refused to respond to new data, and are worki…

In fairness, the right has been pretty consistent about tailoring the response according to risk—i.e., those who are at risk should isolate and everyone else should resume work. They happened to be right in this regard. The left has also made exceptions in their “lockdown everything” policy, specifically with regard to their own protests (and the response of pandemic experts is a particularly interesting case study o…

> In fairness, the right has been pretty consistent about tailoring the response according to risk—i.e., those who are at risk should isolate and everyone else should resume work.

I don't think that was being consistent about "tailoring the response according to risk [from the virus]," but rather being consistent about tailoring the response to pre-existing policy preferences. An ideal lock-down requires significant temporary bottom-up government economic intervention, which the right opposes on principle. The policy of "those...at risk should isolate and everyone else should resume work" fits nicely with existing right wing ideas: keep government intervention to a minimum by maximally individualizing health burdens. The difficulty is that might not actually attack the problem very well.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#49

This is so very disheartening. I will speak only for the United States, as I am not familiar enough with other countries to comment. Not only is this impacting nearly every single person in the country, it is ruining the financial situation of over 40m people, primarily concentrated within the most financially vulnerable. This is because leaders on the left and right have refused to respond to new data, and are worki…

In fairness, the right has been pretty consistent about tailoring the response according to risk—i.e., those who are at risk should isolate and everyone else should resume work. They happened to be right in this regard. The left has also made exceptions in their “lockdown everything” policy, specifically with regard to their own protests (and the response of pandemic experts is a particularly interesting case study o…

The idea of isolation was most prominently attempted by Sweden, the UK, and the Netherlands.

To call it "right in this regard" is, in this regard, wrong. These countries are leading the per-capita corpse count. In the case of Sweden, deaths are about ten-fold that of neighbouring and rather similar Norway. And people are still dying at peak levels in Sweden, while Norway now goes a week without deaths.

Of course it's "right" to "keep vulnerable people away from danger". It just doesn't work. Elderly people in care homes need, well, care. Also food, and medical attention, and housecleaning, and maybe even social contact. All of those needs are provided by young people. How is this separation supposed to work?

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#50

This is so very disheartening. I will speak only for the United States, as I am not familiar enough with other countries to comment. Not only is this impacting nearly every single person in the country, it is ruining the financial situation of over 40m people, primarily concentrated within the most financially vulnerable. This is because leaders on the left and right have refused to respond to new data, and are worki…

I guess I am on the “left”, and my view throughout this thing has been “do what the experts say we should, while maintaining a diversity of expert views.” This is also the vibe I get from most of my “left” friends. Moreover, Europe has largely followed its experts’ advice —- and with a few exceptions they’ve largely brought cases under control, so it’s not like the advice was bad. This “pox on both houses” post, in w…

> “do what the experts say we should, while maintaining a diversity of expert views.”

I don’t think this is an actual strategy. If there is a diversity of views, which experts do you listen to? Also, experts in which field? Epidemiologists have generally recommended very strict shutdowns, but they are not economists and are not experts on the economic ramifications. Some economists agree with strict lockdowns, others do not. So it’s not at all clear what “listen to the experts” means in this case.

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