How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#41

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #22

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

Is that chronology right? Were there protests before he was arrested? Was there property damage in those protests?

Even if so, 90% of the protests and property damage were after the arrest, so... they're pointless?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#42

Post by freeone3000 » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #34

mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

> I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. I don't think this is a good thing. The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence, not to appease angry protesters and to attempt to quell…

It's the last way the people have for their voice to be heard. All laws come from the people governed; legislatures serve at their behest and for their interests. If you have SO MANY people decrying an action -- it's direct democracy in real time.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#43

Post by vkou » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

devalgo wrote: post #39

nradov wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. It worked for us.

>I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. This is incoherent. You can't claim to not condone violence and in the same sentence say but actually it works.

With that reasoning, anyone who supports the modern American state has to condone violence, because it was founded on it.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#44

Post by frogpelt » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote.

But...

I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities.

Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish:

1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices.

2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down even further.

3. Every civilian-police officer interaction post-riot will be even more contentious, thus making violence more likely.

Don’t get me wrong I believe there are corrupt officials and police officers. Obama is right about how to fix that on the local level.

About the actual problem being protested: One of the themes of the protests is to say the names[1] of those have been killed at the hands of the police. Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country.

Try naming the victims of rape or suicide or even murder.

Name the police officers killed in the line of duty in the last ten years. You can’t there’s way too many.

George Floyd should not have died. And the police officer(s) who contributed to his death should be held 100% accountable for their actions.

But there will always be unnecessary deaths in law enforcement situations. Rioting and burning down your own city will not make that fact go away.

So, I feel a loss of hope when I see these riots. To me, it means we are so far from working together to fix the problems that can be fixed. It creates a bigger divide in our society.

[1]https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watchin...

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#45

Post by vkou » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

pathseeker wrote: post #36

mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

>I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. But it's not clear that the violence/property damage component was worth it. Nationwide protests and all of the public outcry could have been enough. Hard to tell at this point.

> Nationwide protests and all of the public outcry could have been enough.

We've had protests, for separate occasions, happen years and years and decades ago, and it has not been enough.

At which point will it be enough? How many more protests will it take? How many more decades will it take? Is anyone still on the fence on 2020 about whether or not bad cops are being protected by their peers and superiors? Do you have a timeline for when this sort of thing will change?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#46

Post by kindatrueyo » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

arpa wrote: post #28

mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

"See, people with power understand exactly one thing: violence." - Noam Chomsky.

They do. But you can't complain if they answer in that same language.

Like the current protesters who act surprised and offended when they get shot with rubber bullets after throwing bricks, rocks and enhanced fireworks at the police or people they deem opponents.

"Live by the sword, die by the sword" -Matthew 26, 26:52

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#47

Post by systemvoltage » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

mwseibel wrote: post #29

I think it’s time for America’s leaders to stand up and organize our citizens in order to make long lasting policy changes. Citizens are paying attention. I want there to be a great American debate about what these changes should be. The world is watching and the American system is being tested. Let’s meet the challenge and be the example we want to see in the world. Clearly America is nowhere near perfect but with e…

I am disappointed by the lack of leadership from the white house. The president should address the nation, bring it together and create a strategy to resolve these issues.

Edit: I should say "disappointed" instead of "surprised". Agree with the responses, there is no expectation anymore from the Whitehouse after 3 years of incompetency.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#48

Post by andrewclunn » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

Please keep you trite virtue signaling civil. And by civil, we mean conforming to all agreed on "open and woke" explainations and opinions. Otherwise you are a bigot and will be banned, which is not censorship, but merely making a more inclusive environment where the oppressed feel safe to impose their views on you as justified by their claims of victimization. Now let's burn this F'er down!

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#49

Post by solomonb » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

What are your thoughts on the Boston Tea Party?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#50

Post by simondw » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #34

mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

> I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. I don't think this is a good thing. The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence, not to appease angry protesters and to attempt to quell…

> The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence

Obviously. But they weren't, and given precedent, probably never would have been. That's why this is happening.