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Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

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Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#41

Post by iguy »

LatteLazy wrote: post #40
iguy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important distinction here is surely between voluntary departure, and being laid off. What did the clause you mention cover? Seems like a fair concern for a company not to have their freshly trained employees get poached by the competition the day they start being useful. (Although IMO it would be better to structure it as a lower salary while in training and a bonus which vests in a year.) But people they have de…

Morally there is a difference but legally there isn't. In the uk, the clauses I have seen all say (some variation of) "leave our employ for any reason". I can understand why. If you don't have to pay 130k back as long as you get fired, that's a huge incentive to get yourself fired right? I think it's a dumb problem caused by governments failing to fund training/education. But as long as that's the case, people need t…

OK, thanks. I am surprised though. Doesn't lots of employment law make a distinction between "fired with cause" and "downsizing"?

Lots of questions, but also: Can they actually collect this?

I guess my proposal of "half pay while training & a post-dated check" probably lines up with "leave our employ for any reason".

Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#42

Post by ornornor »

I think this clause is standard for cadets. I don’t agree with it but I remember looking into becoming a cadet when I was much younger.

I distinctly remember EasyJet: you basically had to go to a bank to get the loan for the whole cost of your pilot training (300k GBP iirc) in your name. If you failed to pass any of the mandatory exams and steps during your training, you’d be kicked out and have to repay the loan back on your own. If you made it as a pilot, EasyJet would deduct part of your salary to pay back.

It seemed like a very shitty arrangement for the cadet/pilot wannabe where you basically shoulder most of the risk for the privilege of working as a pilot for EasyJet.

I didn’t enroll to become a pilot. I don’t regret it.

Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#43

Post by hprotagonist »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #15

Are there any comprehensive websites that are documenting this type of behaviour for the future - like Glassdoor but for consumers and investors? Given an equal choice between buying something from two companies I'd choose the one that had been nicer to its employees and community. Case in point - I own a (quite small) number of shares in UK retailer Hotel Chocolat. I'd probably have sold them if it wasn't for their…

In the case of Qatar, you just have to read the news.

e.g., https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fifa-qa...

Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#44

Post by ornornor »

gbil wrote: post #8
deathgrips wrote: post #2

Lawyer up.

that was my initial reaction, like "ok this would not stand at any court". then I realized that it probably affects employees who live and are citizens of Qatar or similar nations in which 1. I have no idea about their legal system 2. and the only idea I have from what I see in the news etc. about worker rights etc. is not the best

Isn’t it Qatar where you go to jail if you fail to pay your debts? Or maybe it’s only Saudi Arabia, I can’t remember. And this was the reason why the city was apparently littered with perfectly good but abandoned Ferrari and lamborghini cars.

Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#45

Post by dariusj18 »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #15

Are there any comprehensive websites that are documenting this type of behaviour for the future - like Glassdoor but for consumers and investors? Given an equal choice between buying something from two companies I'd choose the one that had been nicer to its employees and community. Case in point - I own a (quite small) number of shares in UK retailer Hotel Chocolat. I'd probably have sold them if it wasn't for their…

I considered doing one at one point, then saw my domain idea was already taken. http://covidshame.com/

They don't have much info about their project. I kind of assume they won't follow up.

Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#46

Post by C1sc0cat »

LatteLazy wrote: post #22
C1sc0cat wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually not most countries strictly limit /regulate this sort behaviour and if your made redundant I suspect that the employer would not be able to recover anything. Unfortunately employment practices in that part of the world are Horrific - its just normally poor navvies employed on building sites get the worst of it - see some of the coverage of the word cup construction in Quatar

It's not illegal in the UK either I'm afraid. In fact, it's standard. Im not saying this is nice or positive. Just that it's totally legal and pretty standard. I know because my first proper employer did NOT put this clause in my contract. Then they tried to introduce it for me and others after adding it for new employees. So I (we, there were 5 of us) actually sought legal advice. The lawyer was surprised it wasn't…

I did say "strictly limit /regulate" and just because some one puts something in a contract doesn't make it enforceable (justiciable)

And in the UK you would NOT want to cross BALPA (pilots union) if an airline tried this.

Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#47

Post by jonplackett »

vinay427 wrote: post #26
jonplackett wrote: post #3

That’s it, I’m cancelling my summer holiday to Qatar.

I can't tell if you're serious, but Qatar has had a long history of migrant worker abuses and exploitation, perhaps most globally publicized due to the FIFA World Cup controversies. This Qatar Airways incident is rather benign by comparison. Migrant/foreign workers make up almost 90% of their workforce according to this article, which honestly makes much of Qatar seem dependent on something resembling indentured serv…

Don't worry, it was a joke! I thought that would be more obvious given the current lockdown in most countries.

Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#48

Post by LatteLazy »

gspr wrote: post #29
LatteLazy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't boomers. Boomers is a specifically western phenomenon. In China for instance, the same generation were basically the oppose: they were given nothing and built a much better standard of living for their children. Sorry to be anglocentric. I try not to be, but it slips through sometimes. :)

> They weren't boomers. Boomers is a specifically western phenomenon. Your original comment is still super US-centric. I live in a western European country. In my country, the "boomer" generation and their parents built the welfare state that gave me free education from kindergarten to PhD. I'm forever grateful for that, and the social safety nets they put in place.

I live in the UK. We have a higher density of boomers and they’re more boomerish than the US. Like all social categories, ymmv!

Out of interest, what country do you live in? I thought all of Western Europe had welfare etc before the boomers took over?

Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#49

Post by LatteLazy »

iguy wrote: post #41
LatteLazy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morally there is a difference but legally there isn't. In the uk, the clauses I have seen all say (some variation of) "leave our employ for any reason". I can understand why. If you don't have to pay 130k back as long as you get fired, that's a huge incentive to get yourself fired right? I think it's a dumb problem caused by governments failing to fund training/education. But as long as that's the case, people need t…

OK, thanks. I am surprised though. Doesn't lots of employment law make a distinction between "fired with cause" and "downsizing"? Lots of questions, but also: Can they actually collect this? I guess my proposal of "half pay while training & a post-dated check" probably lines up with "leave our employ for any reason".

I’m honestly not sure about collecting these debts.

In the UK they could technically be discharged through bankruptcy. But that takes a long time and ruins your life (you’ll be barred from a lot of carriers and lose basically everything).

In Qatar, it’s more complex. They use a weird mix of sharia and more western law. I’m not convinced these loans would be sharia compliant so maybe there is some wriggle room there? On the other hand suing the state airline in an absolute monarchy with no judicial independence may be difficult. I don’t think Qatar has a concept of bankruptcy (as all credit should be secured and limited against collateral). So they’re between a rock and a hard place.

Maybe they can flee and find a country (countries) that won’t enforce a Qatar civil judgement? But I think the west generally will so not sure where that leaves...

Re: Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew

#50

Post by truthsayer71 »

growse wrote: post #39
gazoakley wrote: post #21

More background here: https://onemileatatime.com/qatar-airways-fires-pilot/ https://viewfromthewing.com/qatar-airways-firing-pilots-and-... It's suggested in the first article that the pilot had failed to pass the necessary exams: "The other side of the story here is that the pilot has spent the past six years completing a two year training course, and still hasn’t passed any of the tests necessary to become a pilot.…

Why would they hire someone so incapable in the first place?

Interviews and tests don't determine how competent someone is going to be performing a job in future, passing candidates are just as likelty to be as competent or non competent. What you should really be asking is that how come they end up hiring competent people in first place? Because those who apply are already have knowledge or experience to help them be competent in first place. I have seen some people who interview and pass tests well end up being useless and sometimes those who initially don't present well end up being competent. How would you determine competency in the first place? In many cases with enough practice and assistance even the most incompetent can perform the required tasks successfully. There is no test to show that anyone is going to be competent or not in future. At above some intelligence level everyone is just as likely to end up being competent in performing any job, but the time that they have reached the position of applying for a specialised job they are likely to be competent in.
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