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How Reliable Are University Rankings?

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Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#41

Post by jmchuster »

downerending wrote: post #8

Regardless, you should think hard before accepting at the "top" university that will take you. Many times it's better to be a big fish in a small pond than vice versa. Also, in terms of learning, it's really about the access you can get to the ten or so percent of the faculty that actually worth anything. Figure out who they are and go after them. Also, network, network, network. Smart or not, everyone you meet in sc…

I could consider the primary advantage of a "top" university to be its network and the access it gives you to jobs. Namely, companies that do new grad hiring have a specific list of colleges that they target and will source and review resumes from. Not to say that people from other colleges can't get in, but that you'd have to apply directly and have something standout to get the recruiter to even consider you.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#42

Post by Aperocky »

tyingq wrote: post #40

There is a very current thing happening where individual professors have too much power. The whole "remote teaching" thing is VERY new for some universities and professors. My son recently survived a final where > 90% of the class failed. Mostly due to poor execution of remote learning. Including simple stuff like classes overlapping meeting times, study material uploaded too late, etc. No pressure on the professor o…

> where > 90% of the class failed.

I can't imagine this happening in a college class where the instructor get to keep his class next year.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#43

Post by dntbnmpls »

plorkyeran wrote: post #19
spideymans wrote: post #4

Why is there such a fixation on university rankings in the United States? Postsecondary rankings don't seem to matter as much in other Western countries.

Is there actually a big fixation on university rankings? I had no idea what my school's ranking was (apparently it's now #40) and I'm not sure I've ever had conversation where university rankings came up outside of specifically talking about where a high school student is thinking about applying. Even then it's not like it's common for people to pick which school to go to out of the ones that accepted them based sole…

> I'm not sure I've ever had conversation where university rankings came up outside of specifically talking about where a high school student is thinking about applying.

Most high school students/parents/guidance counselors/etc check the rankings, reputation, average salary of graduates, etc. It even extends to majors and rankings within majors - which might matter more.

> Even then it's not like it's common for people to pick which school to go to out of the ones that accepted them based solely on rankings.

Who said solely? Of course there are many other factors ( location, tuition, scholarships, etc ). But rankings/reputation/etc are a big part of a high schooler's college decision.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#44

Post by tyingq »

Aperocky wrote: post #42
tyingq wrote: post #40

There is a very current thing happening where individual professors have too much power. The whole "remote teaching" thing is VERY new for some universities and professors. My son recently survived a final where > 90% of the class failed. Mostly due to poor execution of remote learning. Including simple stuff like classes overlapping meeting times, study material uploaded too late, etc. No pressure on the professor o…

> where > 90% of the class failed. I can't imagine this happening in a college class where the instructor get to keep his class next year.

U.S. State college, a fairly well respected one, happening now. Chemical Engineering. They have no idea how to operate "online/remote". And that matters for classes like Fluid Dynamics, Organic Chem, Differential Analysis, etc. Is there some realistic path for me to escalate?

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#45

Post by plorkyeran »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #38
plorkyeran wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there actually a big fixation on university rankings? I had no idea what my school's ranking was (apparently it's now #40) and I'm not sure I've ever had conversation where university rankings came up outside of specifically talking about where a high school student is thinking about applying. Even then it's not like it's common for people to pick which school to go to out of the ones that accepted them based sole…

If you dropped 200k-300k on an education, you'll be invested in either the continued value or and improvement in your investment's reputation, which as the years go on is really its only value.

200k is about what I spent on my education and I can't say I've really had any reason to care about my school's reputation past my first job after graduation.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#46

Post by downerending »

ordx wrote: post #25
downerending wrote: post #8

Regardless, you should think hard before accepting at the "top" university that will take you. Many times it's better to be a big fish in a small pond than vice versa. Also, in terms of learning, it's really about the access you can get to the ten or so percent of the faculty that actually worth anything. Figure out who they are and go after them. Also, network, network, network. Smart or not, everyone you meet in sc…

Care to elaborate? Did you have any problems after graduating from the "top" university?

More "during" than "after". Not sure if mine counts as "top", but most would say it's easily in the top 25 for my discipline. It was plenty hard for me, though, and in hindsight, I think it would have been better to be the brilliant kid in a lower-ranked school than an also-ran in a higher-ranked school (relative to the range of schools that would admit me).

That's just a guess, but I've seen a lot of others suffer from shooting too high.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#47

Post by Rury »

cpsempek wrote: post #32
jedberg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very similar to sports teams. The tops teams don't vary all that much from year to year. They might change positions a bit, but it's rare for a new team to show up who hasn't shown up before. They essentially have to get lucky and get someone who is super talented into a long term contract, who then attracts additional talent. Or they have to invent a whole new way of doing things, like how the Oakland A's inven…

Unsure of the exact metric you're referring to, and I'm about to be just as informal, but sports teams swing much more wildly and often than universities. In the NBA, most recently GSW, going from 5 straight finals with 3 wins to last in western conference. See also CHI before and after MJ era. LAL most recently after Kobe's retirement and pre-Lebron. In the NFL, SF post-Young pre-Harbaugh. I agree, there are often d…

Generally speaking, it's just how networking/reputation works.

Talent goes somewhere -> successful things happen there -> reputation is spread -> some of that success gets associated with the place -> which attracts more talent there. Like a self-feeding loop.

Happens to pretty much every social organization - neighborhoods even. Just look at top tech companies. They attract a lot of talented tech people just because in the past talented people made those companies very successful. Conversely, if they were failures, not many people would be attracted to go there...

Anyhow, that's not to say networks can decline (as reputation also attracts less talented people). Obviously careers often span longer than sports team dynasties so it might take longer to see shuffles happen in school rankings.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#48

Post by covidacct »

tyingq wrote: post #44
Aperocky wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where > 90% of the class failed. I can't imagine this happening in a college class where the instructor get to keep his class next year.

U.S. State college, a fairly well respected one, happening now. Chemical Engineering. They have no idea how to operate "online/remote". And that matters for classes like Fluid Dynamics, Organic Chem, Differential Analysis, etc. Is there some realistic path for me to escalate?

> Is there some realistic path for me to escalate?

Is the instructor an ad junct? Those are cheap and replaceable. They make maybe ~1/10th of what your average FAANG engineer makes because the labor supply is extraordinarily over-saturated. Enough complaints will probably get them fired, if that's what you're looking for, but realize you're probably putting someone with no prospects and no savings out on the street and they will almost certainly be replaced with someone who gives about as many shits as you can expect from someone with a PhD who makes 30k a year. That tuition you're paying isn't flowing to the people teaching the courses.

If the instructor is an actual professor, then probably there's nothing you can do.

BTW, let your kid at least try their hand at navigating this on their own, even if you provide oversight. Barely competent people doing a poor job is not unique to pandemic times and is definitely not unique to higher ed. Knowing how to use a bureaucracy to route around an incompetent person not doing their job well is a valuable life skill. Plus, everyone involved is going to be more sympathetic to an articulate student than to a "helicopter parent".

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#49

Post by qzw »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #14
qzw wrote: post #9

From the abstract: *>we both formally and experimentally show in multiple ways that this ranking scheme is not reliable and cannot be trusted as authoritative because it is too sensitive to weight changes and can easily be gamed. That's a feature, not a bug, as far as USNWR (the magazine doing the ranking) is concerned. A more reliable ranking would be more stable and therefore less interesting for the universities.…

> The fact that it's easily game-able also makes it more attractive to universities because they can do something proactive if they're dissatisfied with their ranking Are you saying that there is nothing lower ranked universities could do to improve their ranking in a better, more objective ranking of universities? Because it smacks of elitism.

Well, in a hypothetical ideal ranking system that is stable and not easily gamed, a lower ranked university would need to actually improve the quality of its education (and whatever other characteristics the ranking system measures) in order to move up the ranks. But that would likely to take multiple years or decades of committed effort and investment. It’s sadly rare to see such long term action in our world of instant gratification, whether we’re talking about education, business, government, entertainment, relationships, individual behavior...

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#50

Post by adas0693 »

covidacct wrote: post #29

I'm mostly on board with the critique of university rankings, but I really don't buy this specific critique. It's a strawman. Here's what they did: they took the top research universities and the top liberal arts colleges. They then observed that the rankings can't distinguish between the top institutions within each class, and that you can also flip which of those two classes is preferred. But, in what sense is it e…

Thank you for your feedback. I am one of the authors of this paper.

I don't think the paper gives any hints on us dividing universities into classes and comparing. Would love to know how you reached that conclusion.

At the same time, yes, we could have divided universities into different classes: research vs liberal arts, this vs. that state, big vs. small size, etc. These are all trivial groupings but none of these would change the conclusions of this paper. For all practical purposes, we could easily have replaced the university names with labels like U1, U2, ... and still the conclusions would not change. What matters is how a weight-based composite index can be gamed and the paper does show that in multiple ways. Pls review the ILP formulations yourself and run them on the dataset of your choice.

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